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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

748 replies

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 17:56

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
moochermini · 04/02/2025 20:12

TheKeatingFive · 04/02/2025 19:50

Quite why anyone is defending this bullshit is beyond me.

No to predatory men in women's spaces. That's a complete no brainer as far as I'm concerned

This.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:12

I agree though that they probably didn’t like each other. Regardless, and taking personalities away and getting to the crux of the matter, I feel she shouldn't have had to share a female space to change in.

@LifeIsAMeatball I agree with this overall, but I'm not sure you can take away the personalities in this case. NHS investigation previously showed a pattern of behaviour which wasn't just about the changing room. This case isn't about the changing room, it has been used as a shield, in my opinion.

If the case was purely about a changing room, I'd be supportive of it. Bullying a co-worker isn't going to fix the changing room issue.

DuesToTheDirt · 04/02/2025 20:12

cariadlet · 04/02/2025 20:01

More photos of the very male doctor here.
How could any woman possibly feel uncomfortable sharing a changing room with him!
x.com/WitchyMcWitch/status/1886825815444173243?t=LRvGo7vjGmUtAmsrv6amyw&s=19

Wonder what he looks like now? Maybe he will appear at the tribunal in a wig and lippy?

spannasaurus · 04/02/2025 20:14

The previous pattern of behaviour was that Sandie would wait outside of the changing room if Upton was in there. On the last occasion she didn't do so as her scrubs were bloody and she needed to change.

Turbottimes · 04/02/2025 20:15

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:32

She did several times.

Indeed she said she had, but if it were such a problem, the next step is to escalate it with upper management. Or are we happy that someone can choose to go against workplace policy, as long as we agree with their stance.

If she had decided she didn't like the policy that said she wasn't allowed to harass a muslim employee for having regular prayer breaks, would we be ok with that?

Everyone has a right to feel comfortable in their workplace. NHS Fife should be providing a mix of changing spaces so that everyone has a place they feel safe. This case isn't going to change that policy. NHS Fife made that clear when they said her bringing the case was vexatious. All this serves to do is whip up more froth. If there is widespread support for her among her colleagues, it should have been pretty easy to have NHS Fife be forced to provide better accommodations. Other organisations have done so.

Clap and cheer this woman all you want, unfortunately she has not helped the cause in any way.

This person didn’t have a GRC. Letting him use the female changing room is against the equality act. The Fife NHS Trust is going to get its arse handed to it and rightly so. Absolutely disgusting from an employer.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:15

Enlighten me then! Why should this man (or penis person, if you want a nice, gender-neutral term) be in the female changing room?

Nicely demonstrating the point you have missed @JazzyJelly (great name!)

My comments had nothing to do with the changing room issue, because I've said a few times, I'm on board with single sex spaces.

My comments were about how the behaviour of the nurse is the issue at hand, given that's what the case is actually about. And how that behaviour is not helping solve the issue of single sex spaces.

Original poster
SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 20:15

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 18:59

I would think that perhaps this thread might give a clue to one of the reasons surely?

Nope. Unless you are suggesting people go through a gender change just to go into female changing rooms? Which seems very unlikely.

This may have been stated. But there was no attempt at a gender change. Beard. Penis. Doesn’t sound like they are trying.

OP posts:
Dawninglory · 04/02/2025 20:15

lifeturnsonadime · 04/02/2025 19:59

Im really interested in what she’s said that you don’t agree with ?

I think she’s 100% right.

Show quote history

Ok JK is 😛!

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 04/02/2025 20:16

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 20:15

This may have been stated. But there was no attempt at a gender change. Beard. Penis. Doesn’t sound like they are trying.

Show quote history

To be fair the poster has admitted they don’t know what a gender change is or what it entails.

TheKeatingFive · 04/02/2025 20:18

My comments were about how the behaviour of the nurse is the issue at hand, given that's what the case is actually about. And how that behaviour is not helping solve the issue of single sex spaces.

What behaviour?

LifeIsAMeatball · 04/02/2025 20:18

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:12

I agree though that they probably didn’t like each other. Regardless, and taking personalities away and getting to the crux of the matter, I feel she shouldn't have had to share a female space to change in.

@LifeIsAMeatball I agree with this overall, but I'm not sure you can take away the personalities in this case. NHS investigation previously showed a pattern of behaviour which wasn't just about the changing room. This case isn't about the changing room, it has been used as a shield, in my opinion.

If the case was purely about a changing room, I'd be supportive of it. Bullying a co-worker isn't going to fix the changing room issue.

I get this, but the judge should be able to separate issues out in their findings, particularly if they find wider workplace bullying has been at play.

Original poster
SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 20:18

delvan · 04/02/2025 19:16

Anyone got a picture of this man Upton? I've searched and can find nowt.

If one party can be pictured in the media surely the other can also, or is there some injunction on this in relation to Upton? If

It’s almost as if putting a picture of a bearded man next to a woman trying to change her bra might make people side with the woman.

why exactly would the MSM not include a picture?

anyone?

OP posts:
spannasaurus · 04/02/2025 20:19

My comments were about how the behaviour of the nurse is the issue at hand, given that's what the case is actually about. And how that behaviour is not helping solve the issue of single sex spaces.

Sandie is the claimant in this case. The case is about the behaviour of NHS Fife and Dr Upton

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:19

He is the person in the wrong. Him alone.

I disagree.

NHS Fife (well, actually the Scottish Government) is at fault for allowing this situation with their "inclusive" policies that actually aren't inclusive.

The nurse is at fault for dealing with this issue in a way that led to allegations of bullying. Much smarter ways to do it.

Dr Upton was at fault for taking the "I know my rights" stance instead of understanding why the changing room issue might be a problem and working together with the other two to find a solution.

JazzyJelly · 04/02/2025 20:21

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:15

Enlighten me then! Why should this man (or penis person, if you want a nice, gender-neutral term) be in the female changing room?

Nicely demonstrating the point you have missed @JazzyJelly (great name!)

My comments had nothing to do with the changing room issue, because I've said a few times, I'm on board with single sex spaces.

My comments were about how the behaviour of the nurse is the issue at hand, given that's what the case is actually about. And how that behaviour is not helping solve the issue of single sex spaces.

Bollocks. You've used every excuse in the book against women having single sex spaces.

The nurse could be a raging racist, homophobic, literal nazi, and she'd still have been well within her rights to tell this revolting bloke to fuck off back to the men's where he belongs.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:25

Even women who have opinions you don't approve of should have the right not to be abused at work.

Everyone has the right not to be abused at work. Even the ones whose life choices you don't like.

And as this all stemmed from allegations of her bullying Dr Upton, her opinions seem rather relevant to that. It's not a massive leap to suppose someone who self confessed being outspoken and knowing that her actions were against the harassment policy, might actually have been bullying someone.

TheKeatingFive · 04/02/2025 20:26

The nurse is at fault for dealing with this issue in a way that led to allegations of bullying. Much smarter ways to do it.

Allegations do not mean that they are warranted.

Why do you think it's acceptable that this woman has been made to change with a man and then gaslit over her concerns?

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 20:26

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:05

The fact that Dr Upton is a man is central to her case. Not being able to state this in the tribunal would be a complete injustice.

If her defence of bullying is that men shouldn't be allowed in changing rooms, she isn't going to get on very well. Especially if the allegation of bullying is centred around her bullying a transgender woman.

But, if she wants to go that route, I think most lawyers would be able to make that distinction without misgendering.

I believe the entry requirement for the category of Trans Woman is male.

Therefore, she should be allowed to address the person opposite her in court as male. The fact that the male identifies as not male is not her concern.

If the Trans Woman turned up in hospital in front of this nurse with the male signs of heart attack, would the nurse be in trouble for malpractice if she ignored those signs as they are not female?

Lovelyview · 04/02/2025 20:26

Reading about this case is so distressing. The nurse involved had previously experienced sexual assault by a man and and told this man that she found his presence in the changing room distressing. I have to ask the women on this thread. If you were in a changing room with a woman who had had a flooding incident during her period and she said could you leave the changing room while she got changed would you refuse to leave because you had a 'right' to be there? Because that's what this man did. A woman would have given her privacy but a man refused to.

JazzyJelly · 04/02/2025 20:27

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:25

Even women who have opinions you don't approve of should have the right not to be abused at work.

Everyone has the right not to be abused at work. Even the ones whose life choices you don't like.

And as this all stemmed from allegations of her bullying Dr Upton, her opinions seem rather relevant to that. It's not a massive leap to suppose someone who self confessed being outspoken and knowing that her actions were against the harassment policy, might actually have been bullying someone.

Source? Since earlier you apparently didn't know basic things about the case like the fact the nurse had indeed complained to management?

TheKeatingFive · 04/02/2025 20:27

And as this all stemmed from allegations of her bullying Dr Upton

In what sense has she been 'bullying'
him?

lifeturnsonadime · 04/02/2025 20:28

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 20:25

Even women who have opinions you don't approve of should have the right not to be abused at work.

Everyone has the right not to be abused at work. Even the ones whose life choices you don't like.

And as this all stemmed from allegations of her bullying Dr Upton, her opinions seem rather relevant to that. It's not a massive leap to suppose someone who self confessed being outspoken and knowing that her actions were against the harassment policy, might actually have been bullying someone.

He still shouldn't have been in the space where she was undressing.

And bullying , my arse, he was probably pissed off that she wasn't going along with calling him a woman.

Are you bored Zelda or is victim blaming a hobby for you?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 04/02/2025 20:28

Someone is definitely very bored.

TheKeatingFive · 04/02/2025 20:29

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 04/02/2025 20:28

Someone is definitely very bored.

The victim blaming is gross

Original poster
SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 20:29

AnSolas · 04/02/2025 19:34

The papers had to get a court order to publish so it depends on what the court allowed
they are unlikely to attach any image which would get their reporting restricted.

And is a picture needed to reach a conclusion on the substance of the issue?

Show quote history

Pretty easy to find him - https://x.com/blablafishcakes/status/1886865018161111423

x.com

https://x.com/blablafishcakes/status/1886865018161111423

OP posts: