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A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

748 replies

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 17:56

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
SernieBanders · 13/02/2025 10:06

MeTooOverHere · 13/02/2025 10:02

If you're talking about gamete size, no that is not how sex is determined. Gamete size is a result of chromosomes, endocrinology and development. eg some intersex people never produce gametes. And if you want to use gamete size, you'll have to include some XY folks who produce large gametes.

Yes it's complicated.

No it's not complicated.

It does not matter if you are able to produce the gametes, it's if you are set up to try. Just as a female who has a hysterectomy is still a female.

Males (try to) make small gametes

Females (try to) make large gametes

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2025 10:07

DSDs are a red herring. Beth Upton is male, and doesn't have a DSD, Khelif is male but does.

SernieBanders · 13/02/2025 10:07

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2025 10:05

Why can't it simply be respected that female toilets and changing facilities are for women, not men who identify as women?

Because the affirmation of others and compliance of women is needed in order to satisfy these males urge to cosplay. Nothing but complete and total acceptance of males as female is ever acceptable. Sports, changing rooms, sexual partners. It all has to be accepted.

There are five lights. Can't you see?

OP posts:
Grammarnut · 13/02/2025 10:12

MeTooOverHere · 13/02/2025 09:54

I too am opposed to the use of cis. It means nothing.

How are you defining sex?

I have asked this question before and no-one has answered me.

Are you just going to go with 'XX'? What about XXY? What about XXXY?

Or are you going to go with 'no Y'? What about a person with XO chromosomes?

Let's think of it another way. You want safe spaces that are women-only, right? You don't care about 'everyone else'. Ok, so you need to be able to define what a woman is. Is she XX? If so how will we prove we are women? We will all need to have chromosome testing, we will all need to be able to prove we are XX at any time when we are challenged. Usually this would be drivers license, as per most other IDs, yes? So potentially every woman would need to subject herself to a chromosomal test plus agree to such ID on her DL.

And someone would have to police this, at least at the doors to women-only spaces, because otherwise it would be meaningless.
Can you think of any way this might backfire on us? In the USA people are being stopped and asked for papers to prove they are citizens.

Now 'everyone else' doesn't matter to you so they won't need to have chromosome testing and an entry on drivers license. This at least will weed out the MTF trans folks (who to be honest, I'm a good deal more concerned about, because adding regular testosterone shots doesn't make them nicer people).

It's complicated. It's not simple. I agree women's spaces should be for women only but again I ask - how are you defining women?

We are defining women as we always did. Women are instantly recognisable. You don't need a chromosome test to recognise a woman when you see one. TiM do not 'pass' as women except maybe in airbrushed photos. I was served in local shop by a TiM quite recently and was under no illusion that this person with long hair and dangly earings and a dress no actual women would wear in public was a woman - I instantly knew he was a man.
Ditto the TiM who comes to church. His voice alone - let alone his height and build - show him to be male.
It's not complicated. And excluding all males inc TiM means that the odd butch Lesbian who comes in will not be challenged as male - nor will girls with short hair who happen to score goals.

SernieBanders · 13/02/2025 10:14

MeTooOverHere · 13/02/2025 09:54

I too am opposed to the use of cis. It means nothing.

How are you defining sex?

I have asked this question before and no-one has answered me.

Are you just going to go with 'XX'? What about XXY? What about XXXY?

Or are you going to go with 'no Y'? What about a person with XO chromosomes?

Let's think of it another way. You want safe spaces that are women-only, right? You don't care about 'everyone else'. Ok, so you need to be able to define what a woman is. Is she XX? If so how will we prove we are women? We will all need to have chromosome testing, we will all need to be able to prove we are XX at any time when we are challenged. Usually this would be drivers license, as per most other IDs, yes? So potentially every woman would need to subject herself to a chromosomal test plus agree to such ID on her DL.

And someone would have to police this, at least at the doors to women-only spaces, because otherwise it would be meaningless.
Can you think of any way this might backfire on us? In the USA people are being stopped and asked for papers to prove they are citizens.

Now 'everyone else' doesn't matter to you so they won't need to have chromosome testing and an entry on drivers license. This at least will weed out the MTF trans folks (who to be honest, I'm a good deal more concerned about, because adding regular testosterone shots doesn't make them nicer people).

It's complicated. It's not simple. I agree women's spaces should be for women only but again I ask - how are you defining women?

Sex is defined by gamete production, individuals who are intended to produce large gametes (eggs) are female, and those who are intended to produce small gametes (sperm) are male. Below is a list of known sex chromosome combinations, classified accordingly.
Male (Small Gamete Producers) – XY System

Individuals with a Y chromosome (even with variations) develop as male due to the SRY gene, which triggers testes development and male differentiation.
XY – Typical male.
XXY – Klinefelter syndrome; male with some feminization.
XYY – XYY syndrome; taller male, usually fertile.
XXXY, XXXXY – Variants of Klinefelter syndrome; males with more severe symptoms.
XX male (SRY translocation) – Genetically XX but develops as male due to the SRY gene being misplaced onto an X chromosome.
Female (Large Gamete Producers) – XX System

Individuals without a Y chromosome develop as female by default, as they lack the SRY gene.
XX – Typical female.
XO (Turner syndrome) – Single X chromosome; female with short stature and infertility.
XXX (Triple X syndrome) – Female, often fertile with mild physical effects.
XXXX, XXXXX – Rare poly-X females, usually with cognitive impairments.
Ambiguous Cases (Still Fit into Male or Female)

Some conditions may result in intersex traits, but they still fall within either male or female categories based on chromosomal setup.
CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) – XY, but appears female
Genetically male (XY) but resistant to androgens, leading to a female phenotype.
• No functional ovaries or uterus, so still male in terms of gametes (though infertile).
Swyer Syndrome – XY but develops female reproductive structures
XY but with a non-functional SRY gene, leading to female development.
• No ovaries, but can carry a pregnancy with donor eggs.
Ovotesticular Disorder (True Hermaphroditism) – Extremely rare cases where individuals have both ovarian and testicular tissue
• Usually caused by chimerism (two fused embryos with different genetics) or rare genetic mutations.
• In most cases, they lean toward one reproductive role, though sterile.
Final Verdict:
Males: Must have a Y chromosome and are biologically intended to produce sperm (even if they can’t due to a disorder).
Females: Must lack a Y chromosome and are intended to produce eggs.

Regardless of variations, there are still only two sexes, since every human either develops toward sperm production (male) or egg production (female), even if dysfunctional.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 13/02/2025 10:17

MeTooOverHere · 13/02/2025 10:02

If you're talking about gamete size, no that is not how sex is determined. Gamete size is a result of chromosomes, endocrinology and development. eg some intersex people never produce gametes. And if you want to use gamete size, you'll have to include some XY folks who produce large gametes.

Yes it's complicated.

And if an XY person produces 'large gametes' they are female.

If they are producing large gametes naturally, they have ovaries and not testes.

I am not sure what you think is 'complicated' about a female person producing large gametes. I understand that you, personally, think it is complicated but it is not.

And the conditions are grouped as differences of sex development. Not 'intersex' which many people with these conditions reject.

I have listened to a wide range of developmental biologists, evolutionary biologists and medical doctors explain this as a basis of determining sex. What do you believe the medical staff base their determination of infants and children's sex category on?

AnSolas · 13/02/2025 10:18

MeTooOverHere · 13/02/2025 09:54

I too am opposed to the use of cis. It means nothing.

How are you defining sex?

I have asked this question before and no-one has answered me.

Are you just going to go with 'XX'? What about XXY? What about XXXY?

Or are you going to go with 'no Y'? What about a person with XO chromosomes?

Let's think of it another way. You want safe spaces that are women-only, right? You don't care about 'everyone else'. Ok, so you need to be able to define what a woman is. Is she XX? If so how will we prove we are women? We will all need to have chromosome testing, we will all need to be able to prove we are XX at any time when we are challenged. Usually this would be drivers license, as per most other IDs, yes? So potentially every woman would need to subject herself to a chromosomal test plus agree to such ID on her DL.

And someone would have to police this, at least at the doors to women-only spaces, because otherwise it would be meaningless.
Can you think of any way this might backfire on us? In the USA people are being stopped and asked for papers to prove they are citizens.

Now 'everyone else' doesn't matter to you so they won't need to have chromosome testing and an entry on drivers license. This at least will weed out the MTF trans folks (who to be honest, I'm a good deal more concerned about, because adding regular testosterone shots doesn't make them nicer people).

It's complicated. It's not simple. I agree women's spaces should be for women only but again I ask - how are you defining women?

The prior social contract worked

Know you are male
□ Yes
> Stay out

Know you may not be female
□ Yes
> Stay out

Want to be recognised in society as not female
□ Yes
> Stay out

No third party intervention needed.

If the party is having a problem with the male bit they can ask for outside help.

And FYI
females aim to add testosterone to existing levels
males aim to lower testosterone not zero it out

so a biological factor of agression goes up in females ( as in individually more likely than before) and fear goes down. But testosterone is one of a combination the social and biological elements and as you point out is depends on how "nice" the individual is

Grammarnut · 13/02/2025 10:19

SernieBanders · 13/02/2025 10:14

Sex is defined by gamete production, individuals who are intended to produce large gametes (eggs) are female, and those who are intended to produce small gametes (sperm) are male. Below is a list of known sex chromosome combinations, classified accordingly.
Male (Small Gamete Producers) – XY System

Individuals with a Y chromosome (even with variations) develop as male due to the SRY gene, which triggers testes development and male differentiation.
XY – Typical male.
XXY – Klinefelter syndrome; male with some feminization.
XYY – XYY syndrome; taller male, usually fertile.
XXXY, XXXXY – Variants of Klinefelter syndrome; males with more severe symptoms.
XX male (SRY translocation) – Genetically XX but develops as male due to the SRY gene being misplaced onto an X chromosome.
Female (Large Gamete Producers) – XX System

Individuals without a Y chromosome develop as female by default, as they lack the SRY gene.
XX – Typical female.
XO (Turner syndrome) – Single X chromosome; female with short stature and infertility.
XXX (Triple X syndrome) – Female, often fertile with mild physical effects.
XXXX, XXXXX – Rare poly-X females, usually with cognitive impairments.
Ambiguous Cases (Still Fit into Male or Female)

Some conditions may result in intersex traits, but they still fall within either male or female categories based on chromosomal setup.
CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) – XY, but appears female
Genetically male (XY) but resistant to androgens, leading to a female phenotype.
• No functional ovaries or uterus, so still male in terms of gametes (though infertile).
Swyer Syndrome – XY but develops female reproductive structures
XY but with a non-functional SRY gene, leading to female development.
• No ovaries, but can carry a pregnancy with donor eggs.
Ovotesticular Disorder (True Hermaphroditism) – Extremely rare cases where individuals have both ovarian and testicular tissue
• Usually caused by chimerism (two fused embryos with different genetics) or rare genetic mutations.
• In most cases, they lean toward one reproductive role, though sterile.
Final Verdict:
Males: Must have a Y chromosome and are biologically intended to produce sperm (even if they can’t due to a disorder).
Females: Must lack a Y chromosome and are intended to produce eggs.

Regardless of variations, there are still only two sexes, since every human either develops toward sperm production (male) or egg production (female), even if dysfunctional.

Brill answer. One caveat: developing as female is not default. Sex is determined at conception.

SernieBanders · 13/02/2025 10:22

Grammarnut · 13/02/2025 10:19

Brill answer. One caveat: developing as female is not default. Sex is determined at conception.

Could have been clearer yes, but that Y chromosome is gained literally at conception right, so sort of implied.

Anyway, trying too be exhaustive so people can't throw WHATABOUTISMS around :)

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 13/02/2025 10:23

My teenage daughter genuinely does not seem to care if a male comes into her changing room, she says time and again it does not bother her

Very young women are clueless about men, as they have so little experience of them. The wonder is that quite a few older women remain clueless even after experience, as demonstrated by multiple MN threads where someone says “I thought he was different…”

(I really like men and enjoy their company. I’ve had very few unpleasant encounters with men, none of those particularly bad, but I’m under no illusions myself.)

Grammarnut · 13/02/2025 10:25

borntobequiet · 13/02/2025 10:23

My teenage daughter genuinely does not seem to care if a male comes into her changing room, she says time and again it does not bother her

Very young women are clueless about men, as they have so little experience of them. The wonder is that quite a few older women remain clueless even after experience, as demonstrated by multiple MN threads where someone says “I thought he was different…”

(I really like men and enjoy their company. I’ve had very few unpleasant encounters with men, none of those particularly bad, but I’m under no illusions myself.)

I also have had few bad experiences with men. However, I know the leopard by its spots. Amazed that some more mature women do not.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2025 10:26

MeTooOverHere · 13/02/2025 09:54

I too am opposed to the use of cis. It means nothing.

How are you defining sex?

I have asked this question before and no-one has answered me.

Are you just going to go with 'XX'? What about XXY? What about XXXY?

Or are you going to go with 'no Y'? What about a person with XO chromosomes?

Let's think of it another way. You want safe spaces that are women-only, right? You don't care about 'everyone else'. Ok, so you need to be able to define what a woman is. Is she XX? If so how will we prove we are women? We will all need to have chromosome testing, we will all need to be able to prove we are XX at any time when we are challenged. Usually this would be drivers license, as per most other IDs, yes? So potentially every woman would need to subject herself to a chromosomal test plus agree to such ID on her DL.

And someone would have to police this, at least at the doors to women-only spaces, because otherwise it would be meaningless.
Can you think of any way this might backfire on us? In the USA people are being stopped and asked for papers to prove they are citizens.

Now 'everyone else' doesn't matter to you so they won't need to have chromosome testing and an entry on drivers license. This at least will weed out the MTF trans folks (who to be honest, I'm a good deal more concerned about, because adding regular testosterone shots doesn't make them nicer people).

It's complicated. It's not simple. I agree women's spaces should be for women only but again I ask - how are you defining women?

Sorry, this is just going around and around in circles.

You seem to want to be arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. At no time prior to the change in the social contact and the policies did we ever need to conduct any testing.

Yet you seem to think that to expect all the tropish and ridiculous testing and ludicrous genital police are in anyway creditable reasons to not have them to have and to make policy to have single sex spaces that are respected by all .

I am not sure what you have been reading, but you seem to been rather too eager to believe it.

And this? "This at least will weed out the MTF trans folks (who to be honest, I'm a good deal more concerned about, because adding regular testosterone shots doesn't make them nicer people)." Do you mean female people? Or male people?

CheekySnake · 13/02/2025 16:13

Men knew who the women were when:

They wouldn't let us vote
They wouldn't let us inherit property (Pride and Prejudice, anyone)
We couldn't compete in various sports.
We couldn't have equal pay
We couldn't have female toilets in public places or workplaces
We couldn't have our own bank accounts
We couldn't have a mortgage
We couldn't have a credit card
We had to resign when we got married (Marks and Spencer, amongst many others)
We automatically lost custody of our own children if we wanted a divorce
They were testing viagra and there was evidence that it might help with period pain, but the studies were deemed too expensive.
We couldn't study at Oxford or Cambridge
We couldn't be doctors (unless we did a James Barry and lied about our sex)
Rape within marriage didn't exist

Funny how it's only just got complicated now, when men have decided that works in their favour.

Nameychangington · 13/02/2025 21:50

CheekySnake · 13/02/2025 16:13

Men knew who the women were when:

They wouldn't let us vote
They wouldn't let us inherit property (Pride and Prejudice, anyone)
We couldn't compete in various sports.
We couldn't have equal pay
We couldn't have female toilets in public places or workplaces
We couldn't have our own bank accounts
We couldn't have a mortgage
We couldn't have a credit card
We had to resign when we got married (Marks and Spencer, amongst many others)
We automatically lost custody of our own children if we wanted a divorce
They were testing viagra and there was evidence that it might help with period pain, but the studies were deemed too expensive.
We couldn't study at Oxford or Cambridge
We couldn't be doctors (unless we did a James Barry and lied about our sex)
Rape within marriage didn't exist

Funny how it's only just got complicated now, when men have decided that works in their favour.

Edited

This seems appropriate here

A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women
WillIEverBeOk · 14/02/2025 06:57

All DSDs are sex-specific and reinforce the sex binary. Its not complicated at all. Nothing could be more simpler. This 'whatabout intersex' bs is a malicious and manipulative attempt to skew the discussion to accept males in female spaces.

Also intersex groups have repeatedly asked that they not be weaponised in these discussions. I think there is one person at least on this thread that should respect that request.

A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women
A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women
missdeamenor · 14/02/2025 07:30

Many women have experienced sexual abuse of some kind. Roughly 91% of sexual assaults are male on female. Personally; a naked male, in any shape or form sets off the fight or flight response in me because of past abuse.

People are just people and can identify how they please, but females must be protected at all costs.

Helleofabore · 14/02/2025 08:43

WillIEverBeOk · 14/02/2025 06:57

All DSDs are sex-specific and reinforce the sex binary. Its not complicated at all. Nothing could be more simpler. This 'whatabout intersex' bs is a malicious and manipulative attempt to skew the discussion to accept males in female spaces.

Also intersex groups have repeatedly asked that they not be weaponised in these discussions. I think there is one person at least on this thread that should respect that request.

Using the ‘but what about those people with extremely rare medical conditions?’ was only ever to attempt to destabilise the humans sex definitions. And only so someone can attempt to support their announcement that they have a gender identity.

But it amounts to fuckwittery. Because what they tried to do, politically leveraged a group’s oppression, is dishonest because the logic doesn’t even work. It is like saying a dog missing a foot can no longer be classified as a dog.

Plus it was done to support the post modernist theory that if someone says they are something, then that is what they are, even if they are materially not.

Yet, because someone read the same one or two articles in either American scientific or Nature, activists just keep repeating the same flawed arguments. Anne Fausto Sterling even wrote that she was joking in her article listing the five or six sexes, but we see that one pop up sometimes. I even seen it used in speeches by US politicians. Then comes the mistaken interpretation of Claire Ainsworth that meant she ended up having to say ‘no there are only two sexes! Just many body variations between them’.

These same few articles that have been misinterpreted result in the ridiculous situation where you have a doctor and a nurse in Fife both declaring that sex is complicated. Because sex now also encompasses a legal fiction too. Because activists successfully convinced governments to allow people with gender identities to change their sex markers on their identitification, this has now been treated as some kind of change that reflects material reality.

It is all because to support the concept that a person can ‘change sex’. Which is impossible, sex had to be redefined, falsely positioned to be complicated and obscure and then treated as if it possible using philosophical theories.

The harm that has been done to so many other people in the progression of this philosophical deconstruction is still growing rapidly each day as we can see from the growing number of different court cases - the women in employment tribunals, the detransitioners, the lesbian groups trying to get permission to exclude male people, the sporting court cases.

And yet, we still get the ‘sex is complicated’ arguments. It is still an almost daily occurrence to seen that phrase on MN. If it is not about female sport, it is about access to female single sex provisions. Strangely it seems never about access to male sport and male single sex spaces.

I put the main thrust of this leveraging of differences in development to destabilise the sex categories, as in the first time it was leveraged politically on a wide scale was when the group of activists convinced the IOC drop sex testing because it distressed those male people with DSDs when they were othered and excluded from womanhood when they were discovered in that testing. It was argued to be against the human right of dignity. That was for the Atlanta Olympics and that activist team involved some people, iirc, who were heavily involved in treating people with transgender identities or they became involved after. Because at least one then was part of the team who convince the IOC soon after to allow post surgical males with transgender identities to compete in female events. And that was that. They used the male people with DSDs to then open the way for other male people.

No. It is not complicated. Sex in humans is not complicated as you say. DSDs can almost reliably be sorted into affecting only one sex of humans. The few that are affect both sexes require further testing to determine what those bodies were formed to produce by way of gametes.

Helleofabore · 14/02/2025 09:21

Apologies, I am finding it frustrating to still be posting the same thing because someone believed the ‘it complicated’ mantra. Seeing the exact same thing used in this Fife employment tribunal by nurses and junior doctors has been very revealing as to how far that mantra has gone to causing harm.

And we still are having this same discussion about Khelif in the wake of the IBA’s announcement that they are taking the IOC to court.

SernieBanders · 15/02/2025 11:05

Helleofabore · 14/02/2025 08:43

Using the ‘but what about those people with extremely rare medical conditions?’ was only ever to attempt to destabilise the humans sex definitions. And only so someone can attempt to support their announcement that they have a gender identity.

But it amounts to fuckwittery. Because what they tried to do, politically leveraged a group’s oppression, is dishonest because the logic doesn’t even work. It is like saying a dog missing a foot can no longer be classified as a dog.

Plus it was done to support the post modernist theory that if someone says they are something, then that is what they are, even if they are materially not.

Yet, because someone read the same one or two articles in either American scientific or Nature, activists just keep repeating the same flawed arguments. Anne Fausto Sterling even wrote that she was joking in her article listing the five or six sexes, but we see that one pop up sometimes. I even seen it used in speeches by US politicians. Then comes the mistaken interpretation of Claire Ainsworth that meant she ended up having to say ‘no there are only two sexes! Just many body variations between them’.

These same few articles that have been misinterpreted result in the ridiculous situation where you have a doctor and a nurse in Fife both declaring that sex is complicated. Because sex now also encompasses a legal fiction too. Because activists successfully convinced governments to allow people with gender identities to change their sex markers on their identitification, this has now been treated as some kind of change that reflects material reality.

It is all because to support the concept that a person can ‘change sex’. Which is impossible, sex had to be redefined, falsely positioned to be complicated and obscure and then treated as if it possible using philosophical theories.

The harm that has been done to so many other people in the progression of this philosophical deconstruction is still growing rapidly each day as we can see from the growing number of different court cases - the women in employment tribunals, the detransitioners, the lesbian groups trying to get permission to exclude male people, the sporting court cases.

And yet, we still get the ‘sex is complicated’ arguments. It is still an almost daily occurrence to seen that phrase on MN. If it is not about female sport, it is about access to female single sex provisions. Strangely it seems never about access to male sport and male single sex spaces.

I put the main thrust of this leveraging of differences in development to destabilise the sex categories, as in the first time it was leveraged politically on a wide scale was when the group of activists convinced the IOC drop sex testing because it distressed those male people with DSDs when they were othered and excluded from womanhood when they were discovered in that testing. It was argued to be against the human right of dignity. That was for the Atlanta Olympics and that activist team involved some people, iirc, who were heavily involved in treating people with transgender identities or they became involved after. Because at least one then was part of the team who convince the IOC soon after to allow post surgical males with transgender identities to compete in female events. And that was that. They used the male people with DSDs to then open the way for other male people.

No. It is not complicated. Sex in humans is not complicated as you say. DSDs can almost reliably be sorted into affecting only one sex of humans. The few that are affect both sexes require further testing to determine what those bodies were formed to produce by way of gametes.

This is a very long and very important post people should read. All of this is deliberate. Almost malign. Some say definitely malign.

OP posts:
SernieBanders · 15/02/2025 17:29

missdeamenor · 14/02/2025 07:30

Many women have experienced sexual abuse of some kind. Roughly 91% of sexual assaults are male on female. Personally; a naked male, in any shape or form sets off the fight or flight response in me because of past abuse.

People are just people and can identify how they please, but females must be protected at all costs.

How can society get it across that "at all costs" includes telling the truth to trans people however upsetting they find it?

OP posts:
WandsOut · 15/02/2025 22:21

Why can't trans people cope with biological sex being real? And that inability to cope means that women have to get underdressed in front of men.

They've made it so girls who hate their bodies can't cope with hearing they are female.

And men who want access to women's bodies refuse to let anyone talk about them being male.

It's so fucked up. Everyone needs to wake up fast. This is the tip of the iceberg.

SernieBanders · 16/02/2025 07:54

Because it’s their entire identity

and if they are forced to understand the truth the entire rest of their world view collapses.

I think….

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 16/02/2025 17:52

@WandsOut the tribunal covers a lot of the thinking. I had to opt out after the first day as too much and distressing but DU shows how deep it goes belief wise

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