DD's friend is now her girlfriend and I don't know if rules should change.

[BlueSilverCats]

DD is 13 and y8. She's been friends with this girl(lovely ,decent kid, no concerns there).since y7, had plenty of playdates, meet ups, sleepovers etc. They started "dating " in October. I put that in inverted commas as nothing much seems to have changed. Their chats are still mostly about their interests, school stuff , silly stuff nothing heavy or too relationshipy. Apparently they do hold hands at times.

She's been invited for a sleepover next weekend and it gave me pause. If it was a boyfriend it would be an absolutely not. However it also feels wrong to stop it when it was always ok before, but I'm still uncomfortable, probably on principle.

I'm veering towards keeping things as normal . Is that the best way to deal with this? Should rules change now?

I was just talking this through with my husband and just to muddy the waters even more, he came up with the fact that its under the age of consent. In the UK, the age of consent is 16 years old, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. This means that sexual activity between individuals under the age of 16 is illegal, whether they are in a same-sex or opposite-sex relationship. But realistically speaking it happens a lot, the good thing is that they are both the same age.

As to not being able to get pregnant, well yeah but that is not the only consideration as all females under 16 could be put on the pill and that would eradicate that problem. So I have looked it up on the internet and there are other reasons for the law.

1. Emotional and Psychological Impact: Young people may not be emotionally or psychologically ready for sexual relationships, which can lead to long-term mental health issues.
2. Physical Health Risks: Underage sex can increase the risk of sexually transmitted infections (STIs), its irrelevant whether is same sex or not.
3. Power Imbalance: There can be significant power imbalances in relationships involving minors, leading to exploitation and abuse.
4. Legal Protection: Laws are in place to protect minors from being coerced or manipulated into sexual activities by older individuals - obviously not applicable in this case.
5. Developmental Concerns: Adolescents are still developing physically, emotionally, and mentally, and early sexual activity can interfere with this natural development.

These arguments aim to ensure the safety and well-being of young people as they grow and mature.

Having said that, it still doesn't help me with a decision on this one, its not an easy answer is it and I don't envy you one bit but from the sounds of your relationship, you are a good mum and will make the whatever decision you do, for the right reasons and it will come from the right place.

As other posters have said, I think that rather than barring her from a sleepover this is the perfect time to discuss consent! Both how to assert her own boundaries, but also how to avoid crossing her girlfriend's boundaries - kids are new to this stuff and figuring it out. No, I don't think that they're going to sleep together b/c they're so young and it all sounds really innocent, but it's still important for stuff like cuddling/kissing on the cheek/ etc. You sound like a lovely supportive mum, hope it all goes well!

Traditionally there was no legal age of consent for girls together so it's not such a stupid question.

I would say that now she is thirteen it is inappropriate for her to be having sleepovers with anyone. Between girlfriends and boyfriends, plus the risk of other family members being inappropriate it is too much of s risk. Also can you up her extracurricular activities, give her a longer set amount of time for homework and extra work set by you and get her to help elderly family members or something, so that she has less time for girlfriends and socialising.
If you make it a more general change then it id not so much about the girlfriend.

The last paragraph of this does mean that by saying no you create an incentive for her to be dishonest next time.

I get that it's not an easy answer. If it were me, I think I'd allow it with certain clear rules, one of which would be that they aren't both under the covers in the same bed.

Regardless of what you decide, I think you should agree with the other parents that you will present a united front whereby neither set of parents allow anything the other parents wouldn't, and nor do they say or give the impression that they would've allowed it if it were solely up to them. So if you're happy with A,B,C and they're happy with A,C,D, then as far as the girls are aware, both sets of parents are only happy with A & C.

(edited to correct would->wouldn't in last paragraph)

Banning all sleepovers was a consideration that popped into my mind, but I decided against that.

As for your second point, she has a pretty good balance and is quite good at self regulating her downtime (barely did anything with friends over Xmas , including over the phone, as she needed the break) so I'm not interfering with that either.

Then I wouldn’t let her go. She needs to be safe. She sounds like me as a child / I wouldn’t have had the confidence to disturb my friend’s parents in the middle of the night.

Keeping her safe is more important right now than her relationship.

My then fiance (first husband) wasn't allowed upstairs in my parent's house when I was 21!

I was never allowed sleepovers with either sex, or even to stay out overnight. My parents were a bit OTT with it all though. However I think 13 is far too young to let a now girlfriend sleepover.

The state of some responses on here. Social services should investigate your parenting.

Some of you are happy at the thought of a 13 yo having sex because it doesn’t result in pregnancy? Shocking and horrifying.

@BlueSilverCats I would absolutely not be encouraging a sleepover. Sex with a boy is just as bad as with a girl at that age

The thing is that having a sleepover does not equal having sex, and not having a sleepover does not equal not having sex. Sex can happen at any time of the day or night. Or not happen.
It is a complication of same-sex sexual relationships that things like sharing a bedroom, getting changed together and sharing showers are ordinary between same-sex friends and even same-sex strangers. So banning some aspect of these ordinary activities after a mild expression of romantic interest has been made (in this case 'we are girlfriends and occasionally hold hands'), is going to feel pretty strange.
I'd let them get on with it and make it easy for your DD to talk about how things are going in her emotional life generally and in relation to this friend in particular.

Obviously every child is different, but from my experience myself and friends did go a little further than a kiss on the cheek and cuddling before 13.

My thoughts are to speak to the other parent, agree where the line in the sand is and treat them like growing children they are. Commend them for being honest and because the terms of their friendship has matured into something more. They will be expected to adhere to the same conditions you would place on any other relationship. I'd suggest staying over is OK, but sleeping in different rooms would be required.

It's difficult though. You may have an open relationship with your DD, but her GF could quite rightly say that if you didn't know that they were going out together, you would have let them have a sleepover in the same bed - and by that logic, they would have been better hiding their relationship status.

My DD is a few years older. Lots of her female friends went though a phase of being in relationships with each other at 13. It was really just nothing. They just had the kudos of saying they "were in a relationship" and barely even held hands and then it all fizzled out. If your DD and her GF are both desperately wanting to do more than kissing, then they will find a way to do that.

The pregnancy issue is important and that can't happen so that's great.

I think that you'd be right to try and delay the sleepover, but I would be far less sure about saying separate rooms. Sleepovers are fun for teenage friends and the chances are that they are really just friends as they are so young.

I totally agree with this!

It's tricky. Protecting her from underage sex isn't just about pregnancy, it's about not exposing her to things she may not be emotionally ready for. I think I would allow the sleepover, but supervised a bit more closely than usual and with a good chat about safe behaviour and boundaries beforehand. Only you know your daughter though OP. Trust your instincts, and make sure she knows that she can always come to you if things get too deep or she isn't comfortable.

Look at it this way: if your son's male friend was now his boyfriend and they were having sleepovers, you'd probably be concerned. It's not about pregnancy, it's about healthy sexual relationships, consent and the law. And while I am not necessarily saying you should stop her from going to sleepovers, because they could have sex anytime of day, I think you need to really make sure she is comfortable and going at a pace that is ok for her.

This discussion reminds me of a situation my DD found her self in a few years ago. She was a similar age, and attend a girls school.

The girl kept pestering DD to be her girl friend and go out on a date. DD politely said no. And in order not to lead her on, gave back the valentines gift she had brought for DD, saying thanks, but it wouldn't be fair to accept the gift, when she doesn't feel the same way.

Anyhow. DD gets summoned to her form teacher. The teacher said DD was being mean by not dating this girl, and she should just go!

Thankfully, I'd had lots of chats with DD about consent and bought boundaries, so DD said to her teacher - would you be pressuring me to go on a date if this person was a boy, as she sees the situation as exactly the same.

I felt proud of DD for pushing back.

Ok, I'll probably get flamed here, but here goes...
I'm speaking from personal experience. I had relationships with more girls than boys as I was growing up, from the mid 70s onwards, as girlfriends. Me and my best friend even spent a good few months, aged 7 or 8, snogging in the toilets at primary school! (I know grim! They were Portacabin type loos in the playground and very clean!) And that's all it ever was, kissing. Pretending to be boyfriend and girlfriend, but never really stating who was who.
Even at 13, I was in a "romantic" relationship with my then best friend, but it went no further than kissing and a little touching really. Neither of us were coercive, neither of us were in each others pockets.
I have pondered this behaviour for half my life and I truly believe it was just a matter of exploring our own sexualities and "practicing" for when we were older and married. All pretty tame.
We didn't need to have sleep overs to participate in these activities, we got together after school and at weekends during the day. It happens any time, not just on sleep overs.
I wouldn't have had a clue at that age what full on lesbian sex was all about and I can guarantee that your daughter and her friend probably don't either.
I would be a whole lot more concerned if your daughters friend was the pushy, mouthy, sneaky type. That would be more concerning to me.

I would say no to sleepovers in the same room for any romantic relationship at that age. Yes, they can explore physically at any time of the day, it doesn’t prevent them from having sex. But it a) even though it doesn’t prevent them having sex, it makes the message that they ought to be waiting clearer and consistent which, research shows, has an impact on when and how much they will have sex and b) it puts her romantic relationships with girls on the same footing as her romantic relationships with boys (something my own teen DD was somewhat pleased about, despite the protests about the rule, when she asked for a sleepover with her girlfriend).

At 13 her sexual explorations are likely to be limited to kissing and a bit of groping (as they would probably be with boys too). But you don’t know when that will change and if you let them sleep together now, at what point are you gong to say - actually, you’re a bit old for that, she could sleep over last week/month/year, but not now? That will be way more difficult.

Mum of a 17 year old lesbian here, so I have some lived experience and remember how tricky it was to navigate initially!

We came up with the rule that female friends could stay over, but we made her wait until she was 17 before her actual girlfriend was allowed to stay the night. When DD1 was younger, we also allowed her best friend (who is a gay male) to come over until midnight, on the agreement that I gave him a lift home rather than him sleeping here (which I am happy to do), but now they are older and both in relationships with people of the same sex as themselves, we allow him to sleep over too.

We were mindful of the fact we also have a heterosexual 15 year old DD too, and knew that whatever we decided for DD1, would have to be the same for DD2.

Teenage relationships are a minefield, I was home alone with my younger DSis for much of the time from the age of 15, and we had no rules about boys staying (or at least no one around to enforce them) and it led to some very unhealthy relationships and situations, so I wanted to do better for my girls.

An older friend started sleeping with her girlfriend when they were both 13 over 20 years ago. At the time it was completely legal (laws have changed apparently) They are both past 35 now and still together. No one said anything at the time and but then most of the parents weren't around (long story).

I’m with you as well, it certainly would have me questioning whether it was appropriate or not, esp with the other girl potentially being more ‘advanced’ in considering her sexual preferences at what I think is still a young age.

in attempting to manage this, is it possible when you cancel DD’s attendance this time, you could add how lovely if next time there were other girls invited as well?

The sort of sleepover where you chuck a few camp mattresses on the lounge room floor and they have a movie night and takeaways?

Are you kidding? Teenage years are all about sleepovers.

"Could you perhaps ask her what being 'girlfriends' means to her"

This is the important point. How has their relationship changed now that they are dating? Can you have a conversation about this?

Jesus! That’s actually awful coming from any adult, but especially a teacher!!

Well done to your DD for standing up her grond.

• "Could you perhaps ask her what being 'girlfriends' means to her"

This is the important point. How has their relationship changed now that they are dating? Can you have a conversation about this?*

We had this conversation tonight. It's definitely different, especially given the blushing and sheepishness/embarrassment. She also expressed some curiosity about closeness/touching. DD is not a touchy feely person so it's still just hand holding , but she would like to hug this girl, which sounds daft , but it's already a massive step.

And the relevance of this is ?