DD's friend is now her girlfriend and I don't know if rules should change.

[BlueSilverCats]

DD is 13 and y8. She's been friends with this girl(lovely ,decent kid, no concerns there).since y7, had plenty of playdates, meet ups, sleepovers etc. They started "dating " in October. I put that in inverted commas as nothing much seems to have changed. Their chats are still mostly about their interests, school stuff , silly stuff nothing heavy or too relationshipy. Apparently they do hold hands at times.

She's been invited for a sleepover next weekend and it gave me pause. If it was a boyfriend it would be an absolutely not. However it also feels wrong to stop it when it was always ok before, but I'm still uncomfortable, probably on principle.

I'm veering towards keeping things as normal . Is that the best way to deal with this? Should rules change now?

Absolutely this!.

Spot on

I’ve had relationships with men and women, and 13 is too young for sex whether with a girl or a boy. Like it or not, the rules around sleepovers should be different with a romantic partner compared to a friend - and the girls will have to accept that this is all just part and parcel of learning to negotiate romantic relationships as a teenager. Romantic feelings yes, but no sex until a bit older (and in relation to a previous poster’s point, 15 is light years away from 13 in terms of teenagers’ emotional and social development!)

Slightly different because there hadn’t already been sleepovers but my aunt had the same situation with my cousin and the rule was sleepovers were okay but slept in separate bedrooms just like they would have had to if it had been a boyfriend. It’s not just about pregnancy resulting from sex it is also about sex in general and all the things which that can bring- especially at such a young age.

It is tougher when you’d have to change the status quo re. Sleepovers but it sounds like you have a really good relationship & communication so I’m sure you can explain this without it being a big drama and she will understand where you are coming from.

But people on this thread are acting like the question is ‘should I give a shit or not and let them do what they want?’. It’s not. It’s whether rules should be adapted for the context.

I’m not so sure. What’s the difference other than possibly the threat of more severe violence from a boy (as they’re still children)? Girls can and do slap, punch, kick, scratch other boys/girls they’re in relationships with. Part of this is from being immature and inexperienced and unable to cope with disagreements etc, which some adults still struggle with tbf. They are also more than capable of psychological and emotional manipulation and coercion.

Any parents of girls have likely witnessed the effects of toxic friendships - even in reception classes and the nastiness girls can come out with. I don’t understand why they’d be ‘safer’ with another girl, aside from violence inspired by porn such as strangulation etc that’s most often carried out by males

Indeed. The irony of this discussion is that I'm the lesbian parent. And I'm absolutely clear - all children should be safeguarded from sexual relationships while they're young, heterosexual and same sex. There's a depressing naivety from some parents about the impact on teenagers of sexual coercion, online grooming, social contagion and easy access to porn. Just look at the extent of bullying in some teenage groups of girls and then imagine throwing sex into that mix.

We need to be more confident in saying, "No, you're too young" to our children.

I’m not so sure. What’s the difference other than possibly the threat of more severe violence from a boy (as they’re still children)? Girls can and do slap, punch, kick, scratch other boys/girls they’re in relationships with. Part of this is from being immature and inexperienced and unable to cope with disagreements etc, which some adults still struggle with tbf. They are also more than capable of psychological and emotional manipulation and coercion.

Any parents of girls have likely witnessed the effects of toxic friendships - even in reception classes and the nastiness girls can come out with. I don’t understand why they’d be ‘safer’ with another girl, aside from violence inspired by porn such as strangulation etc that’s most often carried out by males

Of course there is.

I would treat it the same as if it was a boyfriend tbh otherwise you are somehow demonstrating thay you view this relationship as “lesser” than if it was a heterosexual couple.

I am sure she knows your rules about no couples sharing a bedroom in your house?

My mother has a strict “no unmarried couples sharing a bed” in her home and it has never once phase my siblings and I. But we have always known that’s the rule and also know in our own homes we get to make the rules.

I’m not being naive. I’m just not trying to control every single social interaction my teens have. Giving them freedom and privacy comes with risks but it is important that they have privacy.

My kids need to be able to speak to their friends privately. They may need to share things with their friends that they can’t with me. They may also need to vent about me or my DH!

The key is to ensure you have very open communication with your kids and that doesn’t come without trust on both sides. I think my DD was 13 when she received a dickpic from a female friend. This female friend had received it somehow and had forwarded it to my DD in an “urgh, look what I was just sent by a random” type of way. The friend didn’t realise she shouldn’t have sent it to my DD. But by having really honest and open communication with my kids, and them trusting me, my DD came to me straight away and asked what to do.

So I don’t need to check their phones. They always come to me first if there is a problem.

You're probably right.

When an issue arises that I'm not 100% sure where I stand , I tend to move away from the conversation, mull on it, think it out , sort out my arguments to present them in a rational and reasonable way and then have a chat with her.

This one however , completely fried my brain and couldn't settle firmly on one side , which is why I came to MN for support. It actually helped massively so I thank everyone for their views.

OP to me, the relationship has changed therefore the rules change. Sex is still an issue whether or not it can cause pregnancy (and I'm absolutely shocked that so many PP don't think so!) - maturity, pressure etc etc are all still major issues. I'd say no to the sleepover

I'll be honest, that’s one conversation we haven't had , as it never came up. She’s an only child so no older siblings to have relationships, she never had any mixed sleepovers to arise in the context of boys , when she did like boys and me and OH aren't married so the whole "no unmarried couples in the same bed" obviously wouldn't apply or need to be talked about.

I dropped the ball on this one.

Less likely, sure. Astonishingly less likely? No, I don't think so. As a secondary school teacher, I've got 30 years' experience of peer pressure and friendship problems among teenage girls.

Dunno what you're reading but what I've read showed no "heteronormativity" - surely people have even been more positive about the relationship because it's same sex?

As for "prudery" (never thought I'd hear that word again!) - they are both well below the age of consent.

I wouldn't allow it because I've experienced being a 13 year old girl and at a sleepover with my "friend" who was a lesbian who forcefully tried to come on to me and force me in to things. I wasn't even bi and had never gave the impression I was interested.

This one blew my brains to be honest as I have no idea what I would do in these circumstances and it really made me think. And I have no advice as my mind is still confused by what you should do.

I wouldn't let my 13yr daughter sleep over at her boyfriends regardless of the possibility of sexual intimacy as I think its too young an age to engage at that level emotionally. But the fact your daughter already has a history of sleepovers there, as they were friends does complicate things. That said, I still can't decide what would be appropriate. I think decline on this occasion and give yourself some breathing room but keep talking openly with your daughter.

But I have to say your daughter is very lucky to have you and that you are being supportive. It sounds a lovely relationship.

Don't blame you, that's how I ended up on here after trying to figure it out for myself, but glad someone gets why it wasn't an instant or easy yes or no answer.

I would treat it the same as if it was a boyfriend tbh otherwise you are somehow demonstrating thay you view this relationship as “lesser” than if it was a heterosexual couple.

I'm a lesbian, and I really don't see it this way.

From a practical point of view, there is far more risk (of pregnancy, STDs and being pressured for sex) from girls dating boys than from girls dating girls.

The main thing, @BlueSilverCats, is to continue being open with your daughter and talking about consent, etc. Your daughter sounds quite innocent, so I wouldn't be too worried about them starting a sexual relationship just yet. In your shoes, I would allow the sleepover as long as my daughter sat through a 'serious chat' beforehand; however, I don't think you're unreasonable not to allow it to go ahead.

just because pregnancy is out of the equation it does not mean that the potential for emotional hurt is not there

I'm specifically talking about power dynamics between teenage girls as individuals, not about general pressure in large groups. I don't agree that teenage girls are necessarily less likely than teenage boys to pressurise their girlfriends to go further than they're comfortable with sexually. The pressure might manifest differently, sure, but I'd still want to protect my kid by putting some boundaries in place which both physically restrict what might happen where (I accept nothing can definitively prevent it) and send a message about my views and expectations as a parent in terms of what level of physical intimacy is appropriate. It doesn't have to be done punitively.

Just to weigh in.

Absolutely 100% the right thing to do to have the talk about respect, consensual relationships, not being too intense etc.

Also they need to consider that a friendship turning into a relationship risks the friendship ending if the relationship does. So definitely a reason not to get too involved too fast.

But - my high school best friend and I were never dating, both straight at school and now as adults.

Doesn't mean that when hormones were raging sleepovers didn't cross boundaries that took us beyond friendship.

On reflection I don't know how many other kids do the same as teens, not my business, it's actually not something we ever spoke about with each other or with anyone else. We were young and embarrassed even about it with each other but went on a few years.

So using us as an example just because they're saying they're dating doesn't mean potentially sleepovers wouldn't be totally innocent even if they weren't openly in a relationship. Maybe it's better you know as at least you can have the discussion.

Your posts make me think that yes the other girl is much more confident in her sexuality whereas your daughter seems to have embraced this side of her because of her feelings for this girl. These close feelings may just be what a heterosexual girl may feel for her close buddies but the physical side of it has been introduced here. This would concern me at any age but at 13 it's a definite no. Of course they can get up to anything during the day but that is a lazy excuse to absolve yourself of any proper parental decision making.

I just want to add that you sound like a great mum, @BlueSilverCats. Whatever you decide to do about sleepovers with this girl, I'm sure you will explain it well to your daughter and, even if she doesn't understand it now, she will when she's older.