to think DS's girlfriend is taking the piss and he needs legal advice

[redwingparty]

Keeping this short as I don't want DS to be outed, though I could write a very long post about this woman, but the main thing is:

DS2 has just bought a flat, his girlfriend has moved in and she is not paying him rent. She is lazy by nature (stayed with us at Christmas but refused to help prep food, lay the table or clear up afterwards because she 'didn't want to'; she spent most of her time in bed) She has just started a MW job and I overheard her say to DS that since he was not charging her anything to live with him, she will only do three days a week.

DS has a long commute, long hours and two second casual jobs at weekends.

I am worried that he will get fed up of her sponging off him but be unable to get her to leave the flat legally if it is her main home. What rights does she have?

Also she mentioned setting up a sideline business of her own from the spare bedroom of the flat which would involve strangers coming into the house. DS1 told me this is probably illegal and against the lease, and could invalidate the contents insurance. But I think DS would find it hard to say no to her (which in itself is a bit of a problem - he idolises her and she puts him down very subtly but frequently).

AIBU to think we should get some legal advice about her housing rights and rights to operate a small business (similar to hairdressing) from the flat?

You might want to encourage him to check:

1. the insurance situation with a business being run from the flat. Not in a ‘you shouldn’t let her do it’ angle but a ‘check if it needs changes’ angle.
2. the mortgage situation with a business being run from the flat (same - check whether it’s an issue, rather than don’t let her)
3. the mortgage situation with another adult living there. Usually banks don’t like having another adult living there without them being on the mortgage as it makes it difficult for them to reposses - so will require formal paperwork declaring that she has no claim on the property. Then handily what covers the bank also covers your son.

tee them up as something you read on mums net.

Your DS is wrong. She's not a tenant, there's no tenancy agreement and she's not paying rent or money towards the mortgage.

www.lawsociety.org.uk/public/for-public-visitors/common-legal-issues/cohabitation-your-rights

If he's concerned, he should get a cohabitation agreement drawn up to state she has no right to a share of the equity should they separate, and any monies she is paying is towards bills not mortgage. Don't let her pay towards any home improvements, only furnishings that she could take with her.

Non paywall link

https://archive.ph/wzf8d

So the GF is lazy for not wanting to work but is also wrong for wanting to start a beauty business?

Also I wonder if you’d make your DD’s BF lay the table and clean up? Everyone is different but personally to me a guest means they are taken care of. If guests offer to help it’s nice but I certainly wouldn’t insist.

With him living in the property she has none. She is technically a rent free lodger so has no rights. If he decides to throw her out h needs to not leave the property until she is out s then she may try changing locks and claiming squatters rights.

If OP is literally watching, I imagine that might put a dampener on things

He owns the fiat, she owns nothing. When he's fed up, he can boot her out. It's his house, his rules. No legal information required. He's not her dad.

He's bought the flat. You do however need to check her name is not on the mortgage as well- you can be on a mortgage without paying towards it, and it doesn't really effect your rights- if he worships her , and she is quite mercenary, as you say it seems likely she might be on the papers.
Technically you need permission from your mortgage provider to run a business from your home, you would also need the permission of the freeholder-as it would change the terms of the buildings insurance ,it would certainly invalidate the insurance.
Then there are the security concerns, people in and out of your home is a definite security concern- you would need a burglar alarm at the least.
Then there is the issue your DS is an adult , and this is really none of your business- if you dispatch this girl he will just resent you, and probably find one just as bad or worse- you really need to talk to him about the choices he is making, and you have to make him see that if he is working all hours God sends having a gf who is workshy is a recipe for disaster.

You can’t chose who your grown-up kids have relationships with, and interference could easily lead to estrangement. Best to butt out and leave him to plough his own furrow - you advice is unlikely to be welcomed.

It's just as well that she isn't paying rent, frankly. She'll have no rights.

When my DD first moved in with her ex (who owned his flat) they discussed how it would work, and they decided that she would pay some bills, but no rent or mortgage contribution. His property was then protected, and she benefited from having lower outgoings than she'd have had otherwise (as did he). She saved a lot in that 18 months, so when they broke up, it was uncomplicated for him, and she had healthy savings to move on with.

She then bought her own place, and when she had a new partner who moved in, they came to the same arrangement. After they'd been together for four years, they remortgaged together, but with a trust in place to protect her investment.

I would say do your research very quietly and have it to hand, while keeping the lines of communication wide open.
This ^

If she’s workshy and using him, this is a recipe for disaster. She will get at least half of everything if they divorce. Fine if she contributes in other ways. Some people do not.

She'll be pregnant in 2025.

How can your DS's gf have any rights to that flat? Unmarried women who are told to leave their house by their ex are always told on here that they have no rights or no claim to the house, so how would this be different?

What is she supposed to do? Stand at the bottom of the bed?

My friend’s son has been shafted twice with property and girlfriends and he never seems to learn! My friend won’t say much to him, for fear of upsetting him.
My ds is 23 and I’ve said to him that I will do my best not to interfere with his life, but if there’s something I’m not comfortable with I will say something to him.

He could see a solicitor who may be able to get him some legal protection. It’s very hard though and you may just have to let him make mistakes!

Unfortunately I don't think we can ever know why our dc like someone.
I remember a Keith Waterhouse book called bimbo, I didn't read it but the blurb was something like, she's a cow, she's nasty, she spends all my money and flirts with all my friends but I love her. 😳🤣

To be it sounds like she's been through some sort of trauma he knows about it and understands, you don't know about it and judge her.

Next time I would say, I'm feeling a bit tired today gf, I'd very much appreciate it if you could chip in and lay the table, don't worry if it is done right or wrong just get cutlery on the table thank you. I appreciate it.

You also have to trust the son you raised.
Maybe money isn't as pressing to him at this moment in time?

Just as a flip my in laws could have written something similar.
I did used to try and help but I was told repeatedly and stood over whilst doing simple tasks that I refused in the end.
My life and money situation was fragile when I met dh, I did work and sometimes 3 jobs but not enough in pils eyes.
20 years in and there are times when I support him when he was out of work and then I had more money and brought lots of stuff in the home and it's all been swings and roundabouts.

Their perspective doesn't understand this at all because they don't live like this or have a similar set up for all mil criticism of me she never worked 🤣.
Making money and being high earners is all they are interested in. So I had no worth in their eyes even though thier son isn't a high earner either.

I did fall pregnant about 4 years in by accident and the response and feeling was I'd done it to trap him ( 4 years into a happy relationship in our late 20s).
We had lots of scowling and bad tempered looks and comments.
I tried to include mil in the process etc.
She stamped on everything except wanting to then take over when dd was born and watching us to criticising us and behave as though we were useless because we didn't do things like her.
I had a severe migraine days after dd was born and I was massively struggling, I know if I don't eat and get meds in I'm in days of trouble. Dh was in the house with his parents in the attic sorting boxes and I was downstairs. I had dd on me and I was trying to get his attention to bring me some biscuits or food so I could then take pain killers and he didn't hear me.
I kept calling him and the next day mil verbally laid into me.
She said I was an absolute disgrace for lying there demanding his attention when he was working hard in the attic whilst I was lazing around downstairs how dare I repeatedly call him when he was obviously very busy etc. She told me how lucky I had been with the birth.

20 years on and we have very very low contact.

Although it's hard to stand by and watch . However , as he is and adult your son needs to lead his own life, make his own decisions and deal with his own errors of judgement. As parents I think we just need to 'keep the door open', when it's needed , and without recriminations.

I know you mean well but I can’t help thinking you’ve Molly coddled him to point where he needs a replacement person telling him what to do - the GF and that’s why he isn’t standing up for himself cause he’s used to being told what to do. I think a breezy suggestion that he checks lease re business, rights & legalities re GF living there. I don’t think you should be doing the leg work. And if it goes wrong he learns. People only learn by having chance to make mistakes, not by having their parents prevent bad things from happening

x

Thank you so much. That is a good and helpful article.

And generally, thanks to everyone who replied, including the critics. One PP said something like 'it sounds like you are making this into a project - go and do something else' and that was very good advice for gaining perspective on it.

There is a bit of truth in what you are saying. I did over-parent - my own childhood was neglectful and I went too far the other way. And he had a lot of difficulties - very poor health in early childhood so I got used to worrying about him. I am way less mollycoddling of his sibling, and always have been, as he was very physically robust and happy and socially confident, and he is far more independent as a result.

Good advice. I am not overreacting so much now.

I work in housing and could answer this question really well, but I won't because you'll just use the info to find loopholes and advise your son how to to deny this young girl her entitlement.

Why would you be bothered about her having entitlement to a rented property he doesn't own? And also, if she were to contribute why would you begrudge her any entitlement? Surely 2 adults are capable of separating things fairly if it were to come to this? Would you be saying the same if she was your daughter...or would you be arguing she would be entitled to a share? Or, if your younger self were in her position would you think it fair you be left with nothing and no security?

Sorry, but people like you are the reason why women get s*t on. Because of overpowering and interfering mother's in laws who can't cut the apron strings and wanting to 'protect their sons interests', encouraging them to screw their women over rather than encouraging them to do things fairly. I certainly have brought my son up to be able to be amicable and fair with his partner, separating assets fairly and not leave her up s*t creek without a paddle if they separate....and I'd hate it if my mother in law was as toxic as this.

Maybe you should be teaching your son how to be fair instead of advising him how to screw her over should they separate. And if you can't do that then at least butt your nose out and be supportive of their relationship or you may find your nose shoved out of your son's life. And rightly so he should choose his partner under these circumstances if he's a decent man he will support her and be fair.

I work in housing and could answer this question really well, but I won't because you'll just use the info to find loopholes and advise your son how to to deny this young girl her entitlement.Why would you be bothered about her having entitlement to a rented property he doesn't own?
For someone claiming to be involved with housing you're not demonstrating much knowledge of housing law. The OP's son owns the flat, but the flat as many are in England, is leasehold, not freehold. If it were rented there are limited rights to transfer the tenancy under the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973. If they were married.

The girlfriend is in law a lodger. Lodgers have no rights to remain in the property if notice is given.

Oh and she's not a "young girl". She's an adult woman. I think the OP should mind her own business but manipulative misinformation isn't helpful.

I think I need to be more aware of acronyms. I thought this woman is a midwife, I was wondering how delivering babies in the spare room was similar to hair dressing