How bad was this behaviour in church?

[cavapoochris]

I'm trying to work it out. I went to a carol service on Christmas Eve. Church packed. I kept my kids with me. Mum A's kids were allowed to roam free. They were up by the choir, chatting and laughing. One child made animal noises during a solo. They were pulling faces and sort of wrestling about. One child was actually grabbed by one of the choir at one point to stop them messing about. Two of the kids climbed over the prayer rail and were playing behind the altar. You could see the choir were getting upset. Mum B is spitting tacks about the whole thing, saying it was totally disrespectful. I thought it was pretty awful, but I don't know what's "normal" for these carol services nowadays. When I was a kid in church, we sat in silence and it just wasn't even a question. I would say this was a fairly traditional service, usually very beautiful and tranquil. The choir work hard to rehearse. I suppose the AIBU is was Mum A reasonable to let the kids mess about?

This reminded me of when we went to the midnight service on Christmas Eve and a dog bit me in church

I remember being mortified when my 18 month old shouted out in the minute silence on Remembrance Sunday (military family) but by 2.5 years old he was certainly the quietest and stillest including some much much older children.

children always find a way to be embarrassing but it sounds like maybe some others in the congregation could have helped the mum a little. I always have a bag of snacks and fun books to quiet mine and other children.

It depends whether you want children banned from carol services- in my church there was a candle lit carol service- one child set fire to another and they were all banned from the service the next year- this kind of behaviour won't be tolerated for any length of time- nor should it, after all it's obvious these children are not usually in church so nothing is lost from the church's point of view if they are banned.
This is what will happen if we are not allowed to call out bad behaviour by other people's children- children will finish up being excluded, not fair but how else can it be dealt with if no one can tell the parents to step up?

I attend RC services. Children are allowed and never excluded but no playing on the altar area. Children run up and down the aisles, cry or vocalise freely but the parents would get them if they tried to enter the altar area.

We always go to a crib/carol service at 4pm on Christmas Eve. My DS has ASD and ADHD so I have been the Mum in the past - running after him and trying to keep him safe/quiet etc. Now he's a teenager and no problem.

This year the vicar said children were welcome to move around and play with the toys at the back. One family had a couple of children making a huge racket - they were behind us so I'm not sure what they were banging or doing, but we couldn't hear any of the readings. I was shocked the parents didn't do something - being invited to play with toys does not mean drown out every other sound in the church! Tbf the kids were not talking or crying - but the banging and crashing could probably have been sorted quite easily. Just rude!

And yes to the distractions and snacks - I used to take packets of raisins and all sorts when DS was small. But I also had to creep around after him to keep him away from the watering cans, candles, coffee and kettles, etc etc etc......😂

Kids can be tricky - and no-one wants them banned. But I do find it strange when the parents just ignore their behaviour......especially if they are annoying other people or getting close to things like candles! At least look as though you are trying.......

Utterly disgusting behaviour. Any responsible parent with any respect for God, His Church, the choir or the congregation would stop this in seconds.

Mum A is a disgrace who should control her children. If I was the priest I’d have stopped the service and specifically instructed them to leave.

I go to church once a year with family and DD is 4 and comes with us. She does wriggle occasionally, but I just distract her quietly with a little note book she likes to write and draw in.

There is no excuse for this behavior. If there is a reason that a child can't control themselves then the parent should take the child out of the situation. It's not fair to other people to have to put up with your child's rudeness.

Feral, unruly little brats.

Totally agree. Our church wants children to feel relaxed and free to explore, so they enjoy church and don't think of it as a chore. That said, it is a sacred place and for everyone.

Some older members of our congregation have expressed displeasure at children making any noise (I should stress the majority are very inclusive) and that is probably too far in one direction, but the fact remains they do still deserve to have their spiritual needs met, and for that we rely on parents to exercise some judgement over what is reasonable freedom for their children.

Children's rights are so important, but sadly some parents have taken that to mean their needs and wants trump everyone else's. I half wonder if all these mental health problems are helped along by childhoods where few boundaries are established, and children are taught to serve themselves and yet exist in a society whose cohesion relies on people being equally aware of the needs of others.

No, she was with my mother. She ran away and picked up some books.

The Altar !! The Altar is sacred, that behaviour is sacriledious. Disrespectful to God, the congregation, they should not have attended.

Go to the playground to play, no point in going if there is no connection to the service and the church .

"Go to the playground to play, no point in going if there is no connection to the service and the church ."

What if they don't know that though? What if that is their first encounter and they wanted to try church out and weren't maybe totally aware of the significance of certain areas of the building? Personally as a Christian I'd rather see someone letting their child run mad but be welcomed than told off or judged and talked about and not come back. If they aren't aware of the 'decorum' in church or the significance of certain areas that's something they can always learn gently with time.

Plus there are lots of churches now that don't have those traditional aspects and where it is much, much more informal and kids do run about and play. So I can see how it could get confusing to know the standard as it varies from church to church.

"Disrespectful to God, the congregation, they should not have attended." Also just to say this type of thinking directly goes against Jesus's teachings on children...

If their mum couldn't get them to behave she should have taken them home. Sounds like she just left them too it - that's crazy.

Lavendar - yes i can agree with that. Thats where a quiet word comes in. Children should be welcomed in church. Exactly if they do not know what reasonable behaviour is, then thats the whole point of growing up, to be guided. And if the mum does not know also, then again perhaps a quiet word . Spoiling things for others - does matter - that is selfish and unkind, which is i think part of the message that should be put across in a church.
A quiet word needs to be done with discretion, non judgemental , in a welcoming way, just to explain to people what is happening, ie that others are upset both congregation and the choir.

As you say - gentle learning. But that can only happen if learning is wanted.

We are not disagreeing.

Mum A is a disgrace who should control her children. If I was the priest I’d have stopped the service and specifically instructed them to leave.
I go to church once a year with family and DD is 4 and comes with us. She does wriggle occasionally, but I just distract her quietly with a little note book she likes to write and draw in.

And if you go once a year I guess you don’t understand the church as the family of God, I’d be appalled at any priest, minister or faith leader publicly shaming anyone. There are ways to deal with the issue discreetly without shaming anyone or excluding anyone. @LadyBug2022 has the right approach especially in an age where people aren’t raised in church and don’t understand the significance of sacred areas or parts of the service. Church as entertainment has a lot to answer for but shaming people isn’t the way to address it.

But the mum wasn't even trying to control them. She just let them run off, so it wasn't as though she was trying and failing to get them away from the choir and would have welcomed some help.

Keeping 3 small kids in tow is tricky, especially if you don't even try.

Is nothing sacred?

It's a church!! In my day we were all quiet and miserable. Also, the xmas eve service usually gets a lot of once a year people.

My NDN was complaining to me about this yesterday - she reckons that in the past few years, Christmas Eve events at her church have been commandeered by people with no interest in church who just want somewhere festive they can sit and allow their kids to run riot, ruining it for the worshippers who are there every week.

I’m not religious but I’ve cut down on theatre, cinema and restaurants as I’ve noticed a growing trend for children having no idea how to behave and parents not giving a toss. Adults are of course also getting worse but the biggest difference for me is parents and children. As a child I was expected to know how to sit still and behave at half the age at which modern parents are still making excuses for their children. It’s ridiculous IMHO.

Agreed, but just respect for people in general. To allow kids to interrupt a singer doing a solo in a church service ... unbelievable. What is wrong with people like this?