How bad was this behaviour in church?

[cavapoochris]

I'm trying to work it out. I went to a carol service on Christmas Eve. Church packed. I kept my kids with me. Mum A's kids were allowed to roam free. They were up by the choir, chatting and laughing. One child made animal noises during a solo. They were pulling faces and sort of wrestling about. One child was actually grabbed by one of the choir at one point to stop them messing about. Two of the kids climbed over the prayer rail and were playing behind the altar. You could see the choir were getting upset. Mum B is spitting tacks about the whole thing, saying it was totally disrespectful. I thought it was pretty awful, but I don't know what's "normal" for these carol services nowadays. When I was a kid in church, we sat in silence and it just wasn't even a question. I would say this was a fairly traditional service, usually very beautiful and tranquil. The choir work hard to rehearse. I suppose the AIBU is was Mum A reasonable to let the kids mess about?

Agree, not the ministers job to parent the kids.

It IS the ministers job to be the leader, the authority figure, which includes asking parents of disruptive children to take them out.

I'm with Mum B - good for her for saying something

Can I add that mum B was probably annoyed given the effort she was putting into parenting to have her children presented with such a bad example....

We used to have a very grumpy middle-aged churchwarden in our church whose superpower was the instant silencing of noisy or inconsiderate people.

One sharp word or icy stare and most offenders never repeated.

He was a godsend for my challenging toddler who often ignored me but fully responded to supergrump.

We love young children coming to church but this was not on. As a member of the choir I'd have been scared to death by unaccompanied kids coming up to the quire - lots of candles and lanterns all over the place, accident waiting to happen. I'm pretty sure our churchwarden would have escorted them away.

I remember this as a kid, being made sit still for a service weekly or being hissed at to be quieter. I can tell you now the children who were given more freedom grew up not trying to get out of mass😉 I think this is one that will split people down the middle though- some people feel extremely strongly about it

She should have felt judged, and harshly so. Her need to seek the Lord does't title her to ruin things for other people.

If you can't manage, you've overbred. And there's far too much of it about.

Yep she should totally shove that 2 year old right back up where it came from.

Her need to seek the Lord does't title her to ruin things for other people.

I suspect our Lord would be firmly on the side of the mum bringing her children to church, given what he had to say about judging others and how he responded to the temple being used as a place of entertainment.

It’s your job to make sure the service isn’t disrupted surely? A teacher would make sure their lesson was not disrupted.

The AIBU was a bit confusing to me. Maybe it was the same for others.

I don't don't think the OP is unreasonable in her thinking it was out of order.

But I read the AIBU question as being written from the point of view of the mother of the unruly children.

I didn't respond as didn't want to skew the percentage to the mother's favour.

I am a musician and also teach in a church school. I have taken part in many, many carol services over the years. Yes you might get some children who make the occasional noise every now and then, or hear a rustling of toys but the description of parent/child A's behaviour is dreadful and extremely disrespectful- particularly playing behind the altar/making animal noises.

However, I think people no longer know how to behave in church (and other settings) these days, as less and less people regularly attend church, so don't have a sense of respect or understand the conventions of sacred spaces. I also think there has been a societal shift in respect for others generally. In recent years (maybe since covid/dependence on mobile phones as entertainment and 'gentle parenting'), there has been a massive increase in people having a sense of entitlement and not caring how their behaviour impacts others. I see this all the time now in theatres, cinemas and public transport. At a recent school concert there were 2 parents talking loudly on mobile phones during a child's piano performance. They were completely oblivious of the impact of their behaviour upon the child who was trying to perform.

Agree, we were expected to behave or the murderous stare from your parent would freeze you un place anyway. If my daughter had a bad day I would go outside with her. Never spoil it for everyone else. And showing a bit of respect for those who had worked hard to prepare the singing. I was raised a Catholic also. My mum is CofE and she expects respect at church from the young ones in the family.

Wasn't it greedy commercial activity he objected to? 'Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”'
(‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NIV‬‬).

This buying and selling was in the outer temple court, the only place where Gentiles (non-Jews) were allowed to go, and was interfering with the Gentiles worshipping God and praying. Plus 'people were being taken financial advantage of, being cheated through exorbitant exchange rates and being compelled to buy “temple-approved” animals for sacrifice, on the pretext that their own animals were unworthy.'
www.gotquestions.org/house-prayer-den-thieves.html

It wasn't about entertainment that I know of.

I'm sure Jesus would want children to come to carol services. I also think he would want their parents to be considerate of other people there though. You can bring things to entertain your kids and not let them run around. I've been attending churches quite a time and people have generally not let this happen.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Awful. Our priest may say at a family service that he understands young kids get restless so doesn't mind them walking about a bit but what you describe is outrageous and if I was the priest I would have asked them to be taken away. Or choir master should have.

The behaviour of family A was unacceptable. Children were expected to sit quietly in church in the past (perhaps having a quiet toy or a colouring book) and they should be able to do so now.
I would have expected the priest/vicar to have said something. (e.g. if the children are restless there are colouring books, books and toys at the back of the church, please don't allow them into the choir stalls or onto the Altar).
If my child was spoiling a service I would definitely take them out, better a momentary disruption than spoiling the whole service.
I went to a Cathedral Carol Service for my granddaughter's primary school last year. I was surprised to see parents walking up the aisle to take photos and one grandmother kept standing up and waving. Also some parents chatting. I think some people have forgotten how to behave or never knew.
I wouldn't jump up and wave in a theatre either or start a loud conversation. It's just inconsiderate.

A teacher doesn't have the parents in the room!

Yes I agree

I have worked in and been involved with a variety of different churches (low to high, modern to traditional) over the years. It depends on a number of factors tbh, including provision for children and their ages. I took DS 18mo to a family communion on Xmas Day and he crawled under the altar rail when I was taking communion. He was exploring but not being disruptive. None of my clergy friends would have a problem with this. I did remove him because he needs to learn but generally I tried to be relaxed about it and I have breastfed at the altar rail before. All the "staff" / official helpers were very supportive (got him toys and a biscuit) but a member of the congregation shot daggers at me, huffed and puffed and I ended up leaving before the end of the service in tears. Not entirely sure what I'm supposed to do at a family service short of not taking him. Which defeats the point of a family service...

I am generally a believer in churches being living buildings and children should be there no matter what the service. No service is a "performance" and you don't "watch" a service. They're to be partaken in. However, I also believe that everyone should be able to have space for their own spirituality. Many people meet God through music. And there would be respect for that. In the situation you describe I would allow my son to explore, (if it weren't packed I'd keep him in the pew / my area) and he'd probably dance to the music, but I wouldn't let him near to the choir. I couldn't stop my 18mo calling out (and it always during a solo or the Eucharistic prayer), but I would expect my 3yo to behave. If the kids are school age then they should know what's expected.

No, the priest should not do this.

What about the dads in this scenario?

Often there are activities for young children in church but sometimes the service is geared for all ages and perhaps this was the case.

I don't think there is any excuse for parents not parenting. Some posters above have said that it would be excusable if ND but ND is not an acceptable excuse for bad behaviour. Parent your children and remove them if they can't behave. ND or NT

Aw that's so lovely of them. I'm tempted to take my child to church now

Your child the books at you?Wow
Presumably she wasn't sitting on her own

Jesus wouldn't have judged