How bad was this behaviour in church?

[cavapoochris]

I'm trying to work it out. I went to a carol service on Christmas Eve. Church packed. I kept my kids with me. Mum A's kids were allowed to roam free. They were up by the choir, chatting and laughing. One child made animal noises during a solo. They were pulling faces and sort of wrestling about. One child was actually grabbed by one of the choir at one point to stop them messing about. Two of the kids climbed over the prayer rail and were playing behind the altar. You could see the choir were getting upset. Mum B is spitting tacks about the whole thing, saying it was totally disrespectful. I thought it was pretty awful, but I don't know what's "normal" for these carol services nowadays. When I was a kid in church, we sat in silence and it just wasn't even a question. I would say this was a fairly traditional service, usually very beautiful and tranquil. The choir work hard to rehearse. I suppose the AIBU is was Mum A reasonable to let the kids mess about?

Mum A was laughing and chatting. Mum B just said "Didn't you see what was going on?" and then walked off.

In addition to my post above, I would probably have also reached out to the mother with playgroup/creche times, in those days the one o'clock club existed, because I'd have wondered if the family was vulnerable/the mother not coping/possibly suffering from MH issues, etc.

They have absolutely no right to spoil it for people who have worked really hard to put on a good performance and also people who have come to enjoy the performance!

It’s a church service, an act of collective worship, not there for your entertainment. Yes children need to learn how to behave appropriately in church but I’d also be deeply unhappy at someone being shamed or turned away in church.

Totally agree. My sister was telling me that their 2yo had yelled out through a carol service, and she said she thought that most people found it as ‘charming’ as her and her husband did. No words 😶

Ah right. Then scrap the above doesn't sound like Mum B was harsh at all.

Appalling behaviour. There is no reason for nt school age children not to be able to sit still and be respectful they manage it perfecy well at school, even many nd children do a great job at sitting as long as its not for too long. Preschoolers might struggle but it's the parents job to manage that and as others have said, maybe take them to the back, take them outside etc as needed. Dreadful parenting. Had I been there and sat near enough I don't think I would've been able to stop myself telling the older child off and suggesting the mother retrieve the youngest one because she was letting them ruin it for everyone.

But the kids were disrupting/undermining the act of worship...

So that is an excuse for ruin it for everyone?

I have dealt with this too being on duty at churches.
We are great at doing a cup of tea and a quite talk in the kitchen. Always. I can find a nice lady in a minute to help with that and one for playing with the kids.
Just tell a member of staff.

She's definitely not a regular churchgoer, so it is possible, but unlikely.

So she may not know the etiquette involved in attending church, or had one pair of hands and three kids to keep track of. I don’t hear anyone helping her with the kids but lots of judgement ironically. Whatever happened to “suffer the little children to come to me”. She may be from a more family friendly tradition - in my church there would have been no end of people helping her with the kids, understanding that keeping 3 small kids in tow would be tricky but also knowing how important it is for children to be in church.

All my sympathy is with the soloist. DH used to be an organist with a full robed choir. Carol services take hours and hours of work and usually a number of young choristers get solos which is very daunting when the church is packed. Getting distracted and messing up a solo can really knock a child's confidence for a long time to come.

Unbelievable that one of the badly behaved DC was 7 - that's the age a lot of cathedrals start their choristers off - expecting them to sit nicely, in silence and sing quite demanding music (several times a week over Christmas))

It's totally unacceptable. Rude, disrespectful and selfish.

yes let’s continue till make endless excuses for people rather than hold them to account for their actions.

At one point, the head of the choir did actually get hold one of the children (because they almost knocked over the christmas tree) and the child started shouting even more, which was obviously quite embarrassing for the choir leader. The mum was sitting at the back of the church and the kids were right at the front, so it's quite likely that the people who would normally have helped didn't know which parent to take the child back to (if that makes sense?) The church was packed. Not a big church, but probably 200 people there. So not that easy to return the child to the right person. I could possibly have grabbed a couple of the children and dragged them back to their mum because I was a few rows from the front, but to be honest it would have been mortifying.

I’ve challenged people on other threads who’ve complained about kids’ behaviour in church over Christmas but what you’ve described is BAD.

Running around and making noise- it’s their church too
Climbing up to the choir schools and in the sanctuary- bad

I sing in a church choir. We practise for weeks before! A little bit of noise from kids is fine and to be expected. What you describe though is beyond, and definitely crossing a line. I remember when my DD aged 3 came up and started throwing books at me as she was upset I was in the choir and not with her- I took her out straight away.

I was at a community church service where children were allowed some freedom during services. On one occasion a piece of Lego was thrown and just missed my face. I stopped going. Children need to understand that some spaces are shared civic spaces. I was in a station waiting room and happy for children to play .. I love children…but when the mum encouraged her two children to jump up and down making a penetrating sound as they landed to count to a hundred..no that was not good.

My kid kicked off on Christmas Eve and unfortunately we had to take him out ☹️

Poor parenting. 🙄

Of course it was highly inappropriate, disrespectful behaviour to all who attended, to the ministry and yes, to the choir who donated many hours to make the special service very special, to those who attended.

Mum A must be oblivious to everything and everyone around her, and one can imagine what shit-terrors her kids will be like as they get older.

Obviously Mum A has zero respect for anything, including herself and her offspring.

Playground, school yard, shopping centre, street, public building, library, church, all the same to this ignorant mother and troubled and trouble-making kids.

Well done Mum B.

I hope you are supporting her @cavapoochris and verbally showing your support.

yes let’s continue till make endless excuses for people rather than hold them to account for their actions.

Or let’s understand that a public carol service on Christmas Eve is a time when many people who don’t usually attend may come to church, which should be a welcoming space for anyone who wants to attend. Should be a place where people are accepted and loved as an absolute tenet of Christian faith, where people who are struggling find support.

It’s the church being treated as a performance space, for the entertainment of those attending, rather than a place of imperfect worship that’s the problem. It was an afternoon carol service, what better time for someone to dip their toe in the water. Of the “performance” was the most important part the regular members should have contingency plans for parents who are struggling for whatever reason - you know as part of being a welcoming Christian community.

So not that easy to return the child to the right person.

But easy enough to judge her.

But there’s the difference, you parented him and took him out you didn’t leave him to disrupt the whole service.

Mum A was at a drinks party before the carol service and laughing and chatting outside afterwards. She may have been desperate for support etc etc but also she may just have wanted to enjoy the carols.