How bad was this behaviour in church?

[cavapoochris]

I'm trying to work it out. I went to a carol service on Christmas Eve. Church packed. I kept my kids with me. Mum A's kids were allowed to roam free. They were up by the choir, chatting and laughing. One child made animal noises during a solo. They were pulling faces and sort of wrestling about. One child was actually grabbed by one of the choir at one point to stop them messing about. Two of the kids climbed over the prayer rail and were playing behind the altar. You could see the choir were getting upset. Mum B is spitting tacks about the whole thing, saying it was totally disrespectful. I thought it was pretty awful, but I don't know what's "normal" for these carol services nowadays. When I was a kid in church, we sat in silence and it just wasn't even a question. I would say this was a fairly traditional service, usually very beautiful and tranquil. The choir work hard to rehearse. I suppose the AIBU is was Mum A reasonable to let the kids mess about?

Mum A needs to control her ferals. That's very poor parenting.

That’s true, but of the parents are not doing their job and it’s disrupting your service, wouldn’t you say something?

It's serving.
A lot of people in the churches I have worked over the years are very well trained in their day jobs to help out on Sundays. And don't mind at all.

Tbh I think my husband (and others) like playing with children and serve tea for a tired mum or other in need of a cup more than sitting in the church. My husband is a teacher and has all safeguiding training and first aid by the church. He often volunteer to run the kitchen at service time. We always have two people in the kitchen. Coffee and cake are done too for the chat after service. A few children like to help sort it.

It's well known in our church that you can go for a quite hot drink if you feel for it. Quite a few ND churchgoers are found in the office/kitchen/vestry/lounge/garden if they need a quite break during the service. Older children needing advice for homework, a chat or fancy a board game. Younger children lost in the toy box.
The doors in our church are open so it easy to come and go for boths children and grown ups. Yes a bit of noise but tbh not a problem.

Pretty sure Jesus would have given the little miscreant a clip round the ear.

I've said a number of times how I would handle it, but as the person leading the service, it's actually not my job!

Ok, will have to read the whole thread as I missed how you would handle it. I still think it is up to the minister to say something or have some basic control over their own service if it’s being disrupted.

I don't want people to feel judged at church. I'd rather she just felt, hm, maybe I should restrain the kids more,

It's not the case that Jesus never judged, though. Although he taught his followers not to judge hypocritically (Matthew 7.3-5), he also said, 'Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly' (John 7.24). According to the Bible 'we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ,'

I don’t get why nobody said anything to mum A why didn’t anybody tell her to control her children? There’s a little bit of playfulness and there’s outright doing that. I don’t go to church but on occasion I’ve been to doctor surgery is in hospital waiting areas where kids are charging around yes it does annoy me. It annoys me when you go to say Toby carvery and the kids are running around and you’re trying to watch where they are and you can hardly walk yourself. I do think parents don’t seem to understand the concept of reigns nowadays

My DH also lapsed Catholic but I have been to quite a few masses over the years with PIKs. Also we had DD baptised and she went to an RC school do there was all the First Communion stuff we had to attend.

There are certainly more children at RC masses than I have ever seen at a C of E service (not that I have been to many of those either in the last 50 years !) Seems as though the expectation is to take children from very young. Consequently more childish noise. But I can't say that it has ever been bad enough to be described as a zoo.

Most of the churches I have been to had picture books and toys available to keep small children occupied and a "calming corner" at the back of the church. I have never, ever seen children running about out of control as OP described. Very poor behaviour.

Just because something is described as child friendly it shouldn't give carte blanche for the children to misbehave.

My nearly two year old acted like family a and I took him out but then let him roam free later when all the kids were up on the alter and he just went and sat with the kings so I think he just wanted to be included. Not sure if people were judging me or not

Child friendly simply means that children are very welcome to attend and they (along with their parents) should feel at ease. It does not mean they can climb up the walls, jump all over the fixtures or scream their little heads off to their hearts content. Child friendly is not code for "do what the fuck you like".

So parents do nothing - and you (the person in charge of the service) let the service be ruined for the whole congregation?

I think sone of the YABU votes (including mine!) were because the question had got a bit confusing! The bulk of the posts clearly agree with the OP that Mum A should have controlled her child.
I think some of it is that most children/families at Christmas Eve services haven't set foot in church since the previous year and genuinely don't know the unwritten rules about not going onto the altar. Plus somehow don't appreciate that it's a religious event for many there, not just a Christmas singalong!

I expect mine to sit quietly but also appreciate that my four year old's whispering voice is a lot louder than any average person's...and that when heavy books like bibles/hymn books accidentally hit the floor in a quiet moment they are LOUD. For me this kind of disturbance is reasonable for young children and I am grateful my church gladly welcomes them regardless. Climbing around the choir/alter etc and willfully disturbing the peace? Totally unreasonable no matter what their age and I would remove them!

I wouldn’t bring my kids to this sort of service. No point in bringing kids to a service where they are expected to sit in silence and be miserable the whole time. Bring them to a family friendly service.

Mark 10:14: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these"

Bring them to a family friendly service.

Can’t get much more family friendly than an afternoon carol service on Christmas Eve, it’s hardly evensong or midnight mass.

Fair comment, but playing behind the altar??

Hmmm... We don't get to send people to burn in eternal hellfire when they piss us off, while we preach non-judgment.

It's not one or the other

Fair point

Luckily, being a species of intelligence (or supposedly so), Homo sapiens tends to have the gift of foresight, and particularly in more developed regions, easy access to reasonable education. In our culture, particularly in recent years, women have become more independent - they are free to work, free to be childless if they so wish, or free to have to children. There are generally no culture restraints here which forces women into a life of only marriage and breeding, staying at home and raising children, because they aren't allowed to work and earn their own living - in many places that is still very much the case - THOSE are the mothers who can complain about not coping, they generally have had no say in the matter.

There was no need to get to three, if you can't cope. Absolutely none. When choosing to have children, it shouldn't be done on a whim, and many questions are considered - one of those would be 'Can I even cope with another? Am I coping now? What if for whatever reason, I had to do this on my own? Could I cope?'.

I, as have many others, have seen the mothers not coping with one or two, the kids are unruly, uncontrollable, and for some reason, chooses to have another. Maybe lacking in the IQ department but again, not a a reasonable excuse IMO.

Sorry, the excuses aren't good enough. People who choose to have children, and have the freedom to choose not to, should do so responsibly. Having them running riot so they are a danger to themselves and others, (and as someone upthread pointed out, sharp objects everywhere and candles at the altar, IS dangerous!) because you cannot cope with the amount you spawned, is not responsible. That makes you a shit person as well as a shit parent.

Poor kids. Poor bystanders in the vicinity. No one likes people like this, and I daresay there are a great many of us who absolutely detest seeing people overbreed who really shouldn't be. It's grim.

There are a great many parents who manage this number and MORE, absolutely well and with class.

As a chorister it would have annoyed me - we practice long and hard for these services. And if I was the soloist I'd have been very upset. Our church has a craft and colouring for the children to use if they can't sit still and quietly.
Running around and playing at the altar is a) not safe (candles etc) and b) disrespectful to that area of the church. Mum should definitely have taken them out

Appalling behaviour - by the mother, not just her kids. Disrespectful and selfish beyond words. And what kind of weakness by the clergy person - to allow what happened at the altar was disgraceful.

No all special needs are obvious. My GS is autistic and can mask it for a lot of the time but then is totally disruptive at times. He disrupted the carol service he attended but the regular congregation know him well.