How bad was this behaviour in church?

[cavapoochris]

I'm trying to work it out. I went to a carol service on Christmas Eve. Church packed. I kept my kids with me. Mum A's kids were allowed to roam free. They were up by the choir, chatting and laughing. One child made animal noises during a solo. They were pulling faces and sort of wrestling about. One child was actually grabbed by one of the choir at one point to stop them messing about. Two of the kids climbed over the prayer rail and were playing behind the altar. You could see the choir were getting upset. Mum B is spitting tacks about the whole thing, saying it was totally disrespectful. I thought it was pretty awful, but I don't know what's "normal" for these carol services nowadays. When I was a kid in church, we sat in silence and it just wasn't even a question. I would say this was a fairly traditional service, usually very beautiful and tranquil. The choir work hard to rehearse. I suppose the AIBU is was Mum A reasonable to let the kids mess about?

They are not all like that. It would not have been tolerated by our priest or some of the parishioners, although in the past, with a doormat priest and some rowdier members of the congregation, it has been a bit like a zoo.

This.
The vicar failed in leadership. They should have publicly asked the parents of the children to take them outside.

When parents are so clueless, it takes a person in a position of authority to put them right and tell them when the behaviour is unacceptable.

@Jellycatspyjamas Whatever happened to “suffer the little children to come to me”.

You've taken that verse out of context. Here it is with the preceding verse:

Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them.But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

This is about letting children come to Jesus to be blessed, not letting them run riot around a church choir.

I do wonder what sort of people those unruly children will grow up to be.

This is now apparently the "norm" at my relatives church. It's always been quite relaxed (United Reform) but now it's known as a "Centre" rather than a Church, which is baffling, particularly for the older members of the congregation who have known it as a church for many years. I understand the church has to be seen as accessible to the community and that, of course, includes children but the behaviour of some of the children is out of order. They, too, run around freely, shouting their heads off during the service. They've pushed past elderly people, almost tripping them up and one of the worst things was that recently, during a christening, which all the congregation remained present for after the Sunday service, some primary age school kids (we aren't talking toddlers here) ran around the font and the parents and God parents, shouting and screaming, frightening the poor baby and totally ruining it for the family. All the while their mother just sits there knitting, with a soppy smile on her face. It's not the children's fault, it's the parents and I wonder how on earth these kids behave at school, although, I expect probably a lot better as their indulgent mother isn't there. The older members of the congregation who dared to complain about their behaviour were told they needed to be more tolerant. It's funny though that when they needed money for new seating, as they did recently, they only wrote to the older church members, asking for a donation of £400 each, as they said the younger church members couldn't afford it!

My DP would be furious if this happened in his church. Loud noises, wandering, playing with toys etc is absolutely accepted from SEN children (whose parents are doing their best to minimise effects on others - which is always the case). Crying, and odd loud comment from other children, also expected, and the latter often causes a few smiles. What you describe, however, crosses the line.

If this latest pathetic excuse is true, that she was 'desperate for solice' then she should have left her children at home with someone!

Going over the prayer rail, into alter and disturbing the choir is completely unacceptable IMO. Not always easy or necessary to keep children with you in quiet local churches but that is going far too far when disrespecting the more scared parts of the church and it is not good religious education, which is what church is for imo, to let children behave lo like that, they should know what the alter represents. Dangerous also with the stone floors and the steps.

It's obviously unacceptable.

You do t need to understand church services to figure this out.

You just need to be a human.

Some concerts/services aimed at kids are specifically shorter and involve some joining in of carols that they might know, however evening concerts/services are generally longer and not necessarily aimed at unruly kids even if billed as “family” event. I took my then 2-year-old to a carol concert where she sat beautifully for 40 minutes but then jumped up and down shouting “poo” so I swiftly removed her from the church. She didn’t need a poo. She just wanted to leave. I was mortified and would not have stayed there with her shouting.
I recently sang in a concert where there were babes in arms shrieking, small children running around and older teenagers with additional needs interjecting with loud noises. It was very distracting and did somewhat spoil the experience for others who had paid a fair amount for tickets, but I think the teenagers were really enjoying themselves. You would perhaps think parents of small babies would self select themselves out of attending concerts. I think I would also not attend with a child who made sporadic loud noises, but you cannot ask people not to bring their SEN kids. I guess setting a lower age limit is more acceptable, and big venues often do.

YABU to even have to ask this question!

It's quite the interesting note, that when I was a child, children managed to sit through an entire service (albeit fidgeting in our seats from about halfway through), and that these days, they don't seem able to. What has changed in this time? The parenting style.

Fully blame the parents. Never saw this at church when I was a youngster. It's what shit, useless parenting has led to.

I'd wager it was much more difficult back then with more undiagnosed SEN, so I don't find that an appropriate excuse. And it has become an absolute excuse for parents that can't parent, anymore.

I recently sang at a Christmas performance which had been rehearsed since August. Unfortunately one parent decided that it was OK to allow her child (7ish perhaps slightly older) to stand directly in front of us and dance along, wave in front of the conductor and mess with equipment FOR THE ENTIRE PERFORMANCE! Most of our footage was redundant due to laws around showing minors which was gutting.
I still have no words.
I have also dialled down on the amount of theatre and cinema I attend as I'm done with having my enjoyment spoiled by people with no self awareness.

Very reasonable in my opinion! I took my children to a Church Service a few days ago. They both have additional needs. We discussed before hand between the adults, who would take them out if necessary and what to do with them while they waited for us to finish in the service.
They were taken out when we could see they were finding it hard to sit quietly. BEFORE they started being noisy and disturbing people.

Absolutely.

I work in Send education.

We take our students to a church service every year.

They don't behave like this because they are educated and cared for and supported to manage the environment.

This isn't a human need. There is no need for the children to behave like this.

It's this new idea of allowing kids to be kids, allowing them to express themselves, assuming undiagnosed send etc as an excuse for not parenting them.

My ds has Send. If he couldn't sit through something I didn't take him - either for the whole time or at all. Same way as I've never made a family member or friend attend something hey have no interest in.

This is about letting children come to Jesus to be blessed, not letting them run riot around a church choir.

And how exactly do children come to Jesus in this day and age other than through being in church?

I’m not saying the behaviour was ok, but it’s a failure in the church organisation not to have plans for children who might escape their parents. This woman had 3 young children sitting at the back of the church, once one made a break for it what was she realistically going to be able to do with the other two from where she was sitting.

I am saying that if you know the parent well enough to know her afternoon activities, and to know there are definitely no additional support needs at play, you know whether she’s generally struggling to parent well - in which case there’s no need for a faux “I just don’t know” thread.

Maybe she did just want to enjoy the music, maybe like others in the congregation she had no thought to God beyond a nice Christmassy thing to do with the kids in the afternoon. I just know I’d hate to be judged on my worst parenting moments by people sitting in a church pew, where I should feel accepted and cared for by people purporting to be part of God’s family. No wonder churches are seeing falling numbers.

🎯🎯🎯

We used to take DS to midnight mass from the age of 2. Our church was extremely welcoming and had a little area at the back with some children's books and quiet toys if needed.

Theres lots going on in a Christmas service, it's not like they have to be completely still and silent the whole way through. Children should be taught to behave, preferably by their parents, but the vicar should have been able to issue a gentle rebuke asking Mum of children to respect the needs of others.

This 👆🏼

But all three kids were at the front - this wasn't a case of just focusing on one child at a time. I honestly wasn't sure whether Mum B's crossness was appropriate or not and whether anyone could think that Mum A's behaviour was fine. I don't think it's fair to blame the church organisers. The church was too full - lots of people standing - to have a separate breakout area. Also most of the organising types were actually in the choir.

We had this at my local Abbey. Advent service with carols just before Christmas. 4 year old girl rolling things across the aisle loudly - solo male parent busy with 3 other older children. Verger came up at third roll, handed noisy toy to girl with a Paddington stare and she stopped. I think, while welcoming children and getting them used to church, the vicar/verger/choirmaster do need to intervene if there's a level of disruption to the service and choir. Simply raising a hand to stop the solo, telling the child kindly he's very welcome in church especially given the nature of Christmas, but to go back to his parent and keep quiet during the solo - would surely have defused the situation.

Sorry, but this is rubbish.

It's our job to lead a service. Having kids run around the communion table, disturbing the choir is disruptive and very distracting.

It's not a ministers job to parent people's kids.

So she needed to get out from her pew, to the front of the church and manhandle her three kids back to their seats without any assistance? The church was standing room only and not one person caught hold of any of three kids as they made their way down the length of the church and pointed them back to mum? I just can’t see it happening in any church I’ve been to - there are always ushers helping people find seats etc, folk involved in crèche keeping an eye out etc members who would stop a two year old wandering through a standing room only crowd.

Unless of course most of the people there weren’t regular church goers and were there to be entertained by a lovely carol service with no sense of worship, community and what it means to be part of a church. In which case what a shame their entertainment was spoiled by imperfect humans.

Surely a good parent watches their children and removes them when they can't behave.

I’m with mum B. I couldn’t stand that kind of behaviour in a restaurant much less a church service with people singing. What compounds this is lack of respect for the performers (as the parent of a musician I know how much goes into the preparation), lack of respect for the venue (crossing the altar rail) and lack of respect for all the other attendees.

I genuinely can’t fathom how you can think that maybe mum b shouldn’t have said anything. Even reading your description raised my blood pressure and I wasn’t even there!

This is entirely the problem. Far too many people having more children than they can realistically manage, then bleating 'What can I do, I've got others with me'.

Having three young children isn't for the faint hearted. Would it have been a different story if the child broke loose to run into the road?

This shit worries me. Parents with too many children than they can cope with, or keep under some form of control, is downright dangerous. In this situation thankfully it wasn't. What about if this little one waited until mum or dad exited the church into the car park by the road, and whilst their focus was on the other children, decided that now was a great time to 'make a break for it'?

If you can't manage, you've overbred. And there's far too much of it about. We're not talking about bad days - everyone, and I mean absolutely everyone has them. There comes a point when it's no longer a bad day, and simply an inability to cope with the number of children you have.

Enough with the excuses.