Nurseries for 12 week-old babies - ok or not?

[weatherthestorm]

Inspired by the current boarding school thread ... Now that there is widespread awareness of 'boarding school syndrome', are we not, as a society, in danger of sleepwalking into raising a generation whose mental well-being is going to be impacted by even earlier separation into a form of institutional care? Will the next generation be defined by 'childcare syndrome', alongside and exacerbating the mental health epidemic that is already emerging through unlimited access to social media content? Will we look back in disbelief that we ever thought it was ok to put babies, as young as 12 weeks into long days in nurseries, where they spend most of their waking lives before they even have any concept of themselves as a whole, separate being? AIBU that we need to lose the taboo / discomfort around engaging with this important issue, before it's too late?

There is no evidence that babies are best with one main caregiver. They need consistent caregivers. Having both mum and dad sharing caregiving, or two other adults, or even three seems fine.

Funded childcare is to financially support parents whilst they work. If someone doesn’t want to work, there is no reason for any funding - that’s a financial decision for individual families.

I can see what you are getting at but there is a huge issue.

Choice, women can choose to have an intense career that demands swift return and shouldn't be shamed by their choices.

The reality is for any change to be available , men need to step up take the career hit and then women may have a realistic choice.

Childcare is incredibly expensive, especially in some areas. We pay 2k per child for nursery which is just unaffordable for some and shouldn’t mean that mothers have no choice but to give up work.

Those people would probably also have something to say about a mother giving up work and having the government fund her too. With those people, generally women can’t seem to win no matter what they do.

I wish our society could go back to the norm of mums being home for their very young children

When was this the norm? And what if women don't want to be the default SAHP?

The reality is for any change to be available , men need to step up take the career hit and then women may have a realistic choice.

Absolutely!

That why I said it would be given only to families who earn below a certain amount.

They are providing childcare care. Some would argue that is work.

I have worked in several nurseries, including one registered to take babies from birth.
I wouldn’t put a young baby in one myself. It’s impossible to give them the care you want to give.
I think it’s okay from about 18 months.
I appreciate that most people don’t have a choice and I was sorry for some of the parents.

All parents provide childcare at home - for differing amounts of time dependent upon whether you are employed or not. Working parents outsource a portion of childcare but still provide the majority.

If you genuinely are concerned about babies going to nursery at 12 weeks, which rarely happens, rather than support for stay at home parents (which would usually be mums) what you should actually be looking at is:

• increasing statutory paternity leave. 2 weeks is nowhere near enough to support mum. Especially if she is trying to breastfeed and struggling to get it established, had a c-section or traumatic birth.
• make shared parental leave more attractive.
• put more support in place for new mothers (breastfeeding support that doesn’t cost a fortune or you have to drive to access, review of traumatic births etc) so a mother doesn’t feel like she needs childcare that early to get support.

But it goes beyond government policy, employers need to be leading the way in this. They need to be accepting of men doing flexible working requests and shared parental leave. It’s not about extending a woman’s time out of the workplace but how we can expand a man’s so he’s seen as an equal parent and how we can best support that new family to make it so they can return to work whenever they feel ready up to a year. That also looks like the man working flexibly around kids when bugs hit the family. Then, if a woman wants to use childcare at 12 weeks, not shaming her with some ridiculous what if post, even though people have been going to nurseries from 12 weeks for generations, rather than acknowledging she is doing it for mental health reasons and/or financial reasons.

I didn’t go back to work until 9 months, I saved for maternity leave to cover the drop in income on SMP. I probably could have done the full 12 months but I didn’t want to. I absolutely did not want to stay home longer than I did. I would have used nursery, just a couple of hours a week, from 12 weeks to help me during my maternity leave if I hadn’t been so concerned that everyone would comment that it was too early and I was doing untold psychological harm to my child. Basically labelled me a bad mum. It’s easy now to say I shouldn’t give a shit but my main worry on maternity leave was that I wasn’t a good enough mum. Had I used childcare for a couple of hours a week from 12 weeks, I might have been in a position mentally to stay home for the full 12 months. I know I’m saying a few hours and OP is talking about whole days but the point is, everyone will need a different level of support and for some families long days at 12 weeks is absolutely the right thing. There are so few babies entering nursery at 12 weeks that anyone who is, has decided it is absolutely the best for their family.

It was only the norm for a very short time, amongst better off working class and middle class people.

Having a child in the first place
The amount of children a family has.
Having both parents go to work.

All financial decisions for individual families, and yet still tax payers are expected to contribute.

I had a choice - haven’t needed to work but have a career I enjoy. DT’s went to full time nursery at six months old (normal maternity leave then). Their nursery was excellent - low turnover of staff, caring well qualified professional staff and two of the key workers became our weekly babysitters for years. No reason to feel sorry for us - happy children = happy parents. DT’s are now in their mid 20’s so I’ve the advantage of seeing how well it has worked out.

I have observed behavioural differences between those who have been in full time, all day every day care to those who just come to do their 15hours at 3yo.

They are very peer oriented compared with other children to the point they are led by peers rather than adult instruction and they will often refuse eye contact especially if being asked to change their behaviour or being asked to do something. Children who don't spend so many hours in childcare will usually listen more carefully and make better eye contact (obviously talking about NT children in these cases).

Educationally, they do tend to do well and meet milestones as they should.

I think there can be a degree of institutional effects - the children aren't mixing with a wide range of adults or having a variety of experiences outside of everything being set up for them as a child with a parent who is taking them out and about (without either being glued to a phone or tablet of course).

Where have you conducted this research?

I’d be very interested to see any studies that prove earlier use of nursery is also a key factor too.I suspect adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) are much more influential on a child’s development and wellbeing and there’s plenty of evidence that indicates a link between ACEs and poorer mental health outcomes amongst children.

For many children that access CAMHS, being left in a nursery as a baby is the least of their worries. It’s not a given that every child has a safe home with a competent caregiver where they can be instead of childcare, early years settings can hugely help children whose parents need additional support or who need extra adults to safeguard them.

I don't think there is a perfect world.. and there never has been... we are sometimes guilty of idolising the past or making sweeping generalisations about entire populations. Fewer children live in poverty, more women have financial independence, we are living longer.

I believe that it is better for babies under the age of one, to be in the care of their mothers, providing that their primary needs of food and shelter are met. The reality of our lives is that we desire more than simply having our primary needs meet.

The needs of women are also important - especially in a society that values wealth,

Should we look at reducing know negative impacts - yes..

Taking children out of poverty and addressing the imbalances between men and women in terms of lifetime earnings, are more likely to have a greater impact on a greater number of people.

There are very few people who put their children in nursery full time at the age of 12 months, because they want to hang out in the spa all day long!

I do think that the burden of childcare should shift so that it is more evenly shared between men and women. There should be mechanisms in place to make it easier for men to take time off to take care of their children. This would mean more focus on what equal pay should mean - not just equal pay for the same job - but looking at the structure of the employment market and addressing the inequalities where women are more likely to have longer periods where they are not earning, where they are in lower paid jobs, or where they are in part time employment, all contributing to women bearing an uneven burden of childcare. (yes, I am a left leaning idealist!!)

Wow, that's one hell of a reach. How on earth are you equating one cohort with identical activities outside of your supervision?

No.

putting babies in nurseries is awful imho

Same. I worked in this industry. It’s just terribly sad for the babies and mothers. I could never do it myself and advised everyone I knew to never put their baby in a nursery.

My babies go to nursery and I’m not sad, they aren’t either. Not all nurseries are poor, some really are excellent.

Anytime there is a thread like this I am always so grateful that I didn’t have to put a 12 week old in full time nursery. My heart goes out to all the parents who had no choice but to do this. It must have been very hard for you to do. 12 weeks is so very young and for such long hours. I have worked in nurseries and it’s honestly rare you get a baby that age but I have seen some. IMO they are FAR too young. The care just cannot compare, not by a long shot.

I honestly cannot fathom however how parents do it, not out of necessity but to further their career or earn big money. That is bizarre to me and extremely selfish. You spend absolutely no time with your baby during the week except to put them to bed.. at 12 weeks?? For money and career?

I am in my 50s and amongst our friends, all our kids are all at university now. You genuinely can’t tell who had a stay at home parent, whose parents both worked, who went to nursery, who had an childminder and whose mother worked part-time etc. Luckily in our group, all our kids are pretty well-adjusted and thriving at uni and very close to their parents; all had the privilege of loving homes and financial stability.

Maybe we are unusual, but you really cannot tell anything about the kids’ upbringings from how they are doing as young adults. Unless the adverse effects are going to hit later?