Nurseries for 12 week-old babies - ok or not?

[weatherthestorm]

Inspired by the current boarding school thread ... Now that there is widespread awareness of 'boarding school syndrome', are we not, as a society, in danger of sleepwalking into raising a generation whose mental well-being is going to be impacted by even earlier separation into a form of institutional care? Will the next generation be defined by 'childcare syndrome', alongside and exacerbating the mental health epidemic that is already emerging through unlimited access to social media content? Will we look back in disbelief that we ever thought it was ok to put babies, as young as 12 weeks into long days in nurseries, where they spend most of their waking lives before they even have any concept of themselves as a whole, separate being? AIBU that we need to lose the taboo / discomfort around engaging with this important issue, before it's too late?

As a 1970s feminist I am proud of all we achieved, but one area where I think we took our eyes off the ball was child raising. We barely considered it in our focus on women engaging equally in the workplace, except a passing thought to free 24 hour nurseries, or to a Kibbutz style collective lifestyle, or to truly equal relationships. None of which have materialised!

Agree @SlugsWon - provision of a decent lifestyle on one income is usually the preserve of the very wealthy, not the middle.

I don’t have skin in this game really as I am lucky enough to work somewhere that offers 6 months full pay for mat leave, shared the leave with my DS’s father (who is lower paid than me) then juggled and bodged it all through lockdowns so the intention to start nursery at 9 months was actually nearer to 18 months before he was attending regularly.

If circumstances were different then I would still have been happy with my choice - he was fine at nursery and I haven’t had a break in earning.

We need childcare options for women who want to work.

It's not ok. But it's not the fault of the parents either. If you have to work, you have to work. It's the responsibility of the govt to sort it out and offer adequate support.

Thank you to the posters who understand that this thread is NOT intended as a criticism of mums who have no choice but to put their babies in childcare before they are ready. Quite the opposite - it's asking how we have come to a point where too many mums (and dads) are being forced into this position.

It's clearly and understandably an emotive issue, but this is the first generation really, who are increasingly being put into full-time nurseries as babies. It's not what parents would choose and it's not what babies would choose in the vast majority of cases. The govt don't want people talking about the impact on children because they don't want to bear the costs of increased family support or flexible working patterns. It feels like families are being told to just 'get on with it' and nobody is allowed to talk about the extreme stress on mothers and babies, or other ways that society could potentially be structured to mitigate this.

It is very rare for babies to be in nursery this young due to the current 9 month maternity leave. I've been a nursery nurse for 30 years and have cared for less than 5 babies this young. For what it's worth, they got lots of cuddles and attention from the staff and were very well cared for. But not ideal no.

I'm from a country where ML is only 3 months, so what do you think everyone does?

I always feel sorry for poor American women. I've seen on groups I'm in that some women go back to work as early as 6 weeks post partum. It's crazy that we live in a world where women have to leave their tiny babies

I wouldn't have had babies if I knew I'd have to put them in nursery when so tiny.
I think its cruel and selfish.

6 months is bad enough, 12 weeks should be illegal.

Could do what, live on benefits? I can't, I don't think we'd make it. Benefits don't pay your mortgage (I don't think anyway) so we'd have to - what, sell the house and spend the proceeds on private rental and hope the landlord never decided to sell? Who would do that?

If you are very wealthy or very poor you can opt out. The rest of us really have no choice.

I'd be interested to know the statistics on the amount of babies sent from 12 weeks, I suspect given our maternity leave it will be very, very low to the point it's not really a "societal issue". It'll be more relevant in countries like the US.

This is simply not true. There was a large focus on how children were raised. A focus for example on children's rights and feminists campaigning to make smacking illegal. There were books written on feminist parenting and workshops. A lot of what is seen as modern parenting was being argued for by feminists.

Yes. I'm American although moved to the UK v young. My friends and relatives back home can't believe how 'lucky' we are with 9-12 months ML as fairly standard! They have it very very hard there

Yes the poor can live in benefits because their earned income is already so low. I am saying you are choosing to have a job and better house by choosing to do a much better paid job. You could give it up, live in a cheap rented house, and be on benefits. The fact you do not want to choose that, shows it is not such a great life.

@ForRealTurtle And childcare?

I went back to work by choice at 3 months. A shorter maternity leave was definitely the right choice for my family.

I don’t agree with the government paying mothers (because few fathers would choose it) to stay at home. I would increase paternity leave from 2 weeks though.

I think it’s a sad situation but unless more money is put towards SMP, or the cost of living significantly reduces, it won’t change.

I’m currently on maternity leave, my daughter is 7 months old and won’t be in nursery until she’s 1 when I go back to work. We went for her nursery visit and to get forms signed etc and there were quite a few really young babies. It’s sad and I can’t imagine it’s what any family would choose to do but for a typical household, where mum only gets SMP, especially if an unplanned pregnancy so less time to save/prepare, there’s often no choice. SMP is about £730 per month ish, it doesn’t come close to comparing to an actual income. Most average people now need the vast majority of both incomes to keep bills paid and food on the table, they can’t afford to live on 1 wage + £730 a month. For us that amount isn’t even half my usual income. Luckily we did plan this pregnancy and so we have savings and my husband earns well otherwise I’d be back to work already. I have lots of friends from baby groups who have gone back already because they couldn’t afford to continue their leave, they aren’t happy about it but being able to feed and house their baby has to come first.

@weatherthestorm There are plenty of us in our 30s whose mothers went back to work at 3 months. It's hardly a new phenomenon and this isn't the "first generation really, who are increasingly being put into full-time nurseries as babies"

There are people who really do need to work. I do not care if mothers work or not. But there is a lot of dishonesty. Mothers are sharing their own circumstances on this thread which show that working is a choice. They want a nice house in a nice area, and to have money to do social activities. To do that they need to work. But they could live differently if they chose that.

@ForRealTurtle I think we are agreeing with each other 😁 I could chose a life of poverty, as could most people I guess, but I don't want that. The alternative is uncomfortable sometimes, such as when I had to drop my baby at nursery and he cried and my heart broke. That was really hard, but a life on benefits would have been worse for all of us.

It's tricky because the choice often feels as stark as that - pay the mortgage= leave your baby in day care, which btw, costs as much as a mortgage! I wish there were better options. I wish nursery staff were paid better, the qualifications more meaningful (I work with learners doing their child care L2, it's not great) the job more satisfying so that people stayed. I wish there were more job shares and part time job available, and that mat leave was longer and included men more meaningfully. I wish there were more onsite nurseries. I wish the nursery years weren't this grim thing you have to get through, both in terms of financial and emotional stress. But here we are!

I'm interested in this.

I had twins.

I put them in a childminders one day a week from when they were 9 months.

It wasn't because I needed to work, it was because my then H worked long hours and I was doing all the childcare for both of them.

I used to sleep while they were at the childminders. I was exhausted. The first year was horrendous.

One baby is probably easier than two, and some mothers will need to go back earlier for financial reasons but I definitely needed some child free time in that first year (for sleeping if nothing else) and I'd be in favour of that continuing to be offered.

I totally agree it is not the first generation. Once childcare credits were introduced, most mums went back to work. That was some time ago.

It's why there is no debate.

Some people have no choice. A debate just makes them feel shit and is unnecessary. A 3 month old baby will be absolutely fine in a nursery, regardless of why they are in there.

Even if it is because the mother wants a career too if she wants to ensure she is never beholden to the father, the absolute bitch 🙄

Similarly, I think we will look back and wonder why in earth we let young children have so much free access to things like TikTok and social media. If you talk to most teachers, they will tell you how they feel behaviour is deteriorating alongside a 'mental health epidemic' in young people. I don't know if mental health is actually worse, or if there is just more awareness / labels for it now. But alongside, this, I think we need to push for more research into the impact of the societal shift towards babies spending most of their waking life in nursery settings. Nothing will change in terms of govt policies around family support if we just refuse to acknowledge anything as a problem .

I don't think there's anything wrong with boarding school from senior school. I don't have any kids in one and I never went to one but there's a way to do it right and boarding schools are not what they used to be. The whole boarding school syndrome are kids who got sent age 6/8 etc to very unloving places and in a era where bullying and safeguarding wasn't taken seriously even in day schools.
I strongly suspect the military level behaviour regimes that exist in most schools now, will, in some years, be spoken about the same way boarding school syndrome is. There's no perfect way to do it, but I think boarding schools now are incredible and are a respite for a lot of kids. I imagine bullying, abuse etc are probably more rampant in day schools as you can't control the home environment as much.

My opinion on nurseries is the same as above, I'm sure theres awful ones, I'm sure there's lovely ones. But the conversation is more complex than simply saying 12 weeks is too young. Babies, like kids, need love attention and a sense of security. If that can be achieved safely in a nursery, than that's not to be scoffed at.

Surely this is fairly unusual in the first place? I've had two babies at nursery (from a year old) and there's never been a 12-week-old baby in the baby room when they've been there. I don't know of anyone who has put their 12-week-old baby into nursery either. They have all gone in between 9 and 12 months when Mum has returned to work. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I think to say an entire generation is going to suffer from it is a bit OTT as I imagine it's actually relatively few children affected. So I'm not sure it's a 'problem' particularly, because the few people who do have to do this most likely either don't have a choice financially or are doing it for another reason (mental health, etc.), where nursery might actually be the best/safest choice. It's all very well saying 'Why did we let this happen?' but surely the issues are multi-factorial.

In the US, though, it is a lot more common due to their lack of maternity leave/pay/rights.