Would you expect an apology in this situation?

[TheGruffalochild]

About half a year ago we visited my db in another city with ds2 and dd6. We had a long day looking around busy museums, walking around the city and then a meal at a pub. By the time we arrived for the meal the kids were exhausted. I always try to sit outside with the kids because they behave better and it doesn’t disrupt others if we are a bit loud chaotic and to be honest try not to eat out too much with them because it can be challenging. However db insisted we sit inside because he wanted it to be nice and he had invited his gf. (They don’t have kids)
As predicted, inside ds2 fell asleep and woke up as the food was arriving, crying confused at where he was and just general post nap grumpiness. Dd6 food came and wasn’t what she expected so she was a bit grumpy about that. Then, while trying to sort out ds, my Dh knocked over dds drink and spilled it all over her clothes. Dd started crying, got up out her chair and I was trying to dry her when db came over and started to clean the table. Dd was starting to enter meltdown mode, and seeing db sat in her chair raised her voice at him and told him hey, get out of my chair. My db told her off for speaking to him that way.
Noticing the situation was escalating I asked dh to remove the kids and take them back to the hotel room, which he did swiftly.
My db then started laying into me about my parenting and kids behavior and I told him he was out of place. Some back and forth went back about who was right/wrong and then I also left.
We didn’t speak for six months, but recently I reached out to make amends.
DB is insisting I should have immediately apologized for dds behavior and he felt disrespected and I crossed his boundaries by allowing her to talk to him like that. He won’t move on until I apologize.
My take on it is:
He already told her off himself
I was too focused on dealing with the meltdown unfolding and sorting everyone out to apologize immediately
I was tired and hungry myself and it wasn’t the best moment to start attacking my parenting
Kids will be kids. I don’t expect apologies from other parents when their kids meltdown and I’ve seen much worse (biting hitting swearing etc.) from other kids meltdowns
I warned him the pub setting wasn’t right

He was sitting in her chair and in her space while she was in stress. He should have just let me and dh deal with it.

AIBU?

I don't think anyone covered themselves in glory and the best thing for your DB to do would be to accept that it was no one's best day. I probably would've apologised at the time tbh but I also wouldn't have held a grudge for no apology so there's fault on both sides I think.

It was an unfortunate situation and yes benefit of hindsight you should have stuck to your guns and gone with your original plan of sitting outside. You know your children best.

Your DB doesn't have children and sounds like he doesn't have a clue about putting their needs first.

the decision you'll need to make is whether you're willing to put up with his current petulance about a one off situation 6 months ago about your children, that he can't let go of. Is the relationship with him something you want to preserve? I certainly wouldn't apologise (for what? Putting your family first?). He sounds like very hard work, and needs to grow up!

maybe the best solution is to give him the reality that while your children are still young and you can't predict every aspect of their behaviour especially in strange places like restaurants/cafe, it's best not to meet him if he can't cope with that reality.

Hopefully you learned from it about making sure the set-up works for everyone; in particular feeding the kids earlier instead of trying to make them stay out exhausted. Everyone was a bit in the wrong here; you should have apologised, but DB over-reacted. Both of you ignoring each other for 6 months is childish and sad. Have you and your DB got along in the past, is it a relationship worth saving?

He’s reached out. Put your pride aside and just meet up and apologise to each other.

I understand it was a long day for your children but coming from someone who doesn’t have children it is highly infuriating to be in situations with wild unruly children who aren’t doing as they’re told and as you’ve said yourself, speak to you rudely. So I’m sure emotions ran high on both sides.

This situation doesn’t need to be made into a bigger deal than it already has. Don’t lose your relationship with your brother over this.

HE didn't reach out, SHE did. His response to her reaching out is that he's still waiting for an apology.

Personally I'd leave him be, and hope that he and gf have children...

Is he planning on having children of his own? Very easy to criticise others parenting when you’ve no experience yourself. Did you get on ok before this? He’s being very unreasonable.

DB sounds clueless at best. He is being unreasonable wanting an apology for what a stressed unhappy 6 year old said to him. I can't imagine many adults seriously choosing that particular hill to die on.

I'd be explaining to him why an apology is not forthcoming, i.e. she was 6. He needs to get a grip overall.

It sounds a bit stressful all round. I think though you can say to DB that although DD shouldn't have been shouting at him about the chair that you were busy and sorting out other things so no you didn't ask her to apologise. If he wants to go NC over this incident then that would be a shame but parenting is hard and the situation was quite stressful and maybe he could cut you some slack and try to be understanding.

He seems a bit dramatic ! I mean I think your DD should be able to cope with a sit down meal at 6 but also it wasn't her fault the drink got spilled on her. It was just one of those days

He won’t make up until you apologise for a 6 year old? I guess it depends how much you want to have the relationship back; that situation is the chaos of kids and anyone with kids would brush that away.
For the sake of family relationships I think I’d apologise though as I’ve seen the damage that family arguments cause

Your DB is an arse

He sounds insufferable. Dd was 6. She was right he was in her chair. He told her off so she knew she hadn’t asked in an appropriate way for some adults. I’m sure by the time she is an adult she will let him sit in her chair. And she will be able to deaL with long days better.

j wouldn’t apologise OP. I’d just leave him to stew. Or tell him to read up on child development/self regulation (sounds like he isn’t fully developed there).

If you do meet up you will have more rows about the kids behaviour as he sounds clueless.

As a parent to a two year old post nap meltdowns are the worse and I sympathise. I do think your brother was in the wrong to have a go at her - it's not his place to do so and you did the right thing and removed her from the situation.

But not speaking to your siblings for SIX MONTHS over what was quite a trivial arguement is ridiculous. Both of you need to move on and stop holding onto rediculous grudges. Is it really worth it?

Also I had an uncle like your brother. Used to tell my parents they spoilt us and let us get away with too much. Then he had his own kid and he was a nightmare. They couldn't get babysitters, he caused criminal damage and it was only my mum's interference that stopped him being expelled from the school (she was a teacher there) and helped him turn it all around. He's a wonderful guy now and married to a wonderful girl...whose just like my mum. Lol

DB has certain expectations of how he thinks a family should be - probably because our family life was very chaotic and shouty growing up and he knows that wasn’t the right way.

However, I feel he takes it to the extreme - expecting kids to be seen and not heard and sit there like little darlings in a movie.

In the museum my dd stopped wanting to look at the exhibits and saw a quiet room for neurodivergent kids and we spent an hour in there coloring. I knew that this was her way of saying it’s too much (loud packed hot museum in the school holidays) so I was happy to do that. However db kept making comments that we were missing out on the exhibits, she came here to learn about history, she shouldn’t get to dictate how the day goes. I think he thinks as a good mum I should be dragging her along to look at each and every artifact and then when we arrive at the meal they should sit quietly eating clean and tidy while the adults talk.

There has been a lot of this small criticism here and there over the past few years and I guess it just came to a head at the meal.

DB is perhaps triggered because he was embarrassed by my parents behavior when we were younger and now thinks I’m behaving the same. However, I’m doing a lot of things differently and do reflect on setting my kids up for success to avoid these kind of situations. I just don’t want to go too far in the other direction and have everyone in the family afraid to fart or sneeze because someone might be offended.

This is a case of you just needing to be patient and wait until he has a child of his own and then you can watch his own child’s meltdowns and problems with grim satisfaction.

Time OP, if he has DC he will look back in shame on how he has berated you. I think your brother is a dick.

He sounds very naive about kids.

i read “about half a year ago”

and on the basis of that

WTAF OP???

Your DB is going to get a rude awakening if he has his own kids. Personally, if he’s digging in his heels demanding an apology then I’d leave him to it. If his need to be right is more important to him than his sister, then he’s an arse. You have tried to clear the air and move on, let him continue to sulk.

He sounds like a controlling, obnoxious prick.

If you want to reconcile with your db could you give him a general apology : that you were sorry the meal didn't go well and the day ended badly? Rather than special apologising for the children's behaviour?

Surely if your family relationship means anything to him then making an apology along those lines should be sufficient for him? If it isn't then perhaps it would be better to maintain your distance from.him.

I wonder if he was extra triggered by it happening in front of the gf, like he lost face somehow. I feel sorry for his future children really if he carries on trying to impose unreasonable expectations upon them.

if shouting in a family is a problem it’s the adults shouting that’s a problem. Not children. Children lead to self regulate at different rates and express distress in different ways. Some of that will be shouting.

Your brother sounds completely clueless. Tbf we probably all are to a certain extent prior to having g children but he needs to have a bit of understanding of his own ignorance or you are going to be on tenterhooks every time you meet which will set the kids off and every happy family meet up will just be a circus.

Personally id not have tolerated one of mine at age 6 speaking to their uncle like that meltdown or no, and they'd have been told on the spot to apologise.
Its during childhood we teach people how to speak to others, yes he told her off but you as her parent should have reinforced that message instead you copped out and let him be the baddie.
By the time shes a teen she'll think she can speak to people that way and get away with it.

Dd was starting to enter meltdown mode, and seeing db sat in her chair raised her voice at him and told him hey, get out of my chair. My db told her off for speaking to him that way.

‘meltdown mode’ isn’t an excuse to be rude or badly behaved. Your DB was cleaning and trying to help the situation and your DD was rude to him for being in her chair. He shouldn’t have laid in to you about your parenting that’s not his place, he told DD off for speaking to him like that but you should have also told her that’s not acceptable. Seems pathetic to not talk for 6 months (from both sides) over this.

Well you shouldn’t be letting your dd tell him off for sitting in her chair when he’s cleaning up her spilt drink. You should have told her straight away that he’s trying to help and he can sit there for a minute. At 6 she can she understand that.

You let her speak to him and be rude when you should have stopped it straight away when he was trying to help.

This is why there are so many naughty misbehaved kids around because parents can’t parent properly.