Would you expect an apology in this situation?

[TheGruffalochild]

About half a year ago we visited my db in another city with ds2 and dd6. We had a long day looking around busy museums, walking around the city and then a meal at a pub. By the time we arrived for the meal the kids were exhausted. I always try to sit outside with the kids because they behave better and it doesn’t disrupt others if we are a bit loud chaotic and to be honest try not to eat out too much with them because it can be challenging. However db insisted we sit inside because he wanted it to be nice and he had invited his gf. (They don’t have kids)
As predicted, inside ds2 fell asleep and woke up as the food was arriving, crying confused at where he was and just general post nap grumpiness. Dd6 food came and wasn’t what she expected so she was a bit grumpy about that. Then, while trying to sort out ds, my Dh knocked over dds drink and spilled it all over her clothes. Dd started crying, got up out her chair and I was trying to dry her when db came over and started to clean the table. Dd was starting to enter meltdown mode, and seeing db sat in her chair raised her voice at him and told him hey, get out of my chair. My db told her off for speaking to him that way.
Noticing the situation was escalating I asked dh to remove the kids and take them back to the hotel room, which he did swiftly.
My db then started laying into me about my parenting and kids behavior and I told him he was out of place. Some back and forth went back about who was right/wrong and then I also left.
We didn’t speak for six months, but recently I reached out to make amends.
DB is insisting I should have immediately apologized for dds behavior and he felt disrespected and I crossed his boundaries by allowing her to talk to him like that. He won’t move on until I apologize.
My take on it is:
He already told her off himself
I was too focused on dealing with the meltdown unfolding and sorting everyone out to apologize immediately
I was tired and hungry myself and it wasn’t the best moment to start attacking my parenting
Kids will be kids. I don’t expect apologies from other parents when their kids meltdown and I’ve seen much worse (biting hitting swearing etc.) from other kids meltdowns
I warned him the pub setting wasn’t right

He was sitting in her chair and in her space while she was in stress. He should have just let me and dh deal with it.

AIBU?

Totally pointless trying to force an apology from a child who's having a meltdown. It further embarrasses them, and even if they comply, is not going to be meant. Horrible behaviour from a parent.

Tired from an overwhelming day and already at the point of needing the quiet space earlier at the museum, sitting inside where it was noisy and stuffy and she's not used to that, food not being what she expected, a drink going all over her, her uncle swooping in and taking her chair and probably acting pissed off... Yep that's all stuff that would put us on a path to a meltdown and when that's happening my priority is helping him regulate.

I would have said sorry the lunch didn't go as planned before I left if he'd been nice about it, yelling at me for my bad parenting would make me feel less inclined to say sorry for anything.

Has he apologised for how he spoke to you? I'd tell him to treat others how you want to be treated.

Its really not funny. Theres a lot of utterly crap parenting going on nowadays and its borne out now as they entering the workforce. Noticed all the threads about how new hires seem to have no idea how to work/behave?
Societally it does have consequences.

Your dB was a bit of an arse and you should have pushed back against all his plans that you knew would end up with your kids being overtired, overwrought and over hungry.
You know how to parent your kids, he does not, so why did you let him take control like that?
You were right to remove your DD when it all got too much, but at that point he was trying to help, your DD was VERY rude to him, and you should have apologised to him. And then made your DD apologise later when you had talked it through with her and she was calmer.
What relationship do you want with your dB? It sounds like you are both carrying a lot of baggage from your own childhoods, and are dealing with it very differently. If you love him and know he struggles with it, then cut him some slack, go and have a proper talk with him and give him a hug. Life is too short for this sort of carry on.

Agree. You let it go when they are young because they are tired, etc, then it just becomes the norm. I’d have 100% told my child to apologise immediately. I am not a strict parent but always been strict on my kids speaking respectfully. I’d have messaged my DB afterwards and apologised and explained they were tired but you’ve spoken to DD about the way she spoke to her uncle

You clearly told your brother that it would be better for your kids to sit outside for behaviour reasons and he insisted on not doing that. No way on earth would I be apologising for the entirely predictable consequences of that.

Yes, your daughter spoke rudely to her uncle. But of course when a six year old is having a meltdown, she won't be able to calmly listen to you when you ask her to apologise. And she certainly wouldn't mean it if she did. It's not "raising rude children" like some deluded posters here think (how long has it been since they actually had small children themselves, I wonder? I notice many people out of the small kids phase have very rose tinted memories of their own parenting and children's behaviour). If a child is just a bit grumpy or tired and they’re rude, you correct them. If they’re past that point and into meltdowns, you de-escalate the situation rather than fanning the flames forcing apologies or getting angry yourself.

Yeah, don’t fall out with your brother over this and be perpetually estranged. That would be really tragic. Next time, you be more assertive about what your kids can tolerate and cannot tolerate and plan an activity accordingly. Alternatively, see your DB without the kids along if he can’t handle their company,

Time and a place. When she is on the verge of a melt down you deescalate, not start telling her off when she's exhausted and hungry.

He has no experience of children particularly neurodivergent children. Does he know your daughter is neurodivergent and what that means?
I would expect a 6 year old to be able to sit inside for a meal and I have plenty of experience with children so you can’t really blame him.
None of you behaved well here. Storming out of a meal, shouting at each other and not speaking for 6 months. It’s all ridiculous and yes I would apologise if my child shouted at an adult because no one should be shouting at anyone. However affronted they are. Just apologise and move on. Honestly so much unnecessary drama

Don’t you dare apologise to him OP - what a neurotic arsehole! Who on earth demands an apology for a 6 yo being a bit cheeky? He told her off at the time as you say, that’s fair enough. But to then lay into you about your parenting and go in a sulk for 6 months? He sounds like a controlling bully.

Don’t apologise and don’t “reach out”.

He won’t move on until I apologize
So you have 2 choices. You apologise and hope the relationship can be repaired or you refuse and go another 6 months with no contact.

I guess it comes down to what you want more, the relationship or the sense that you did nothing wrong and have nothing to apologise for.

Why did you reach out in the first place? It obviously wasn’t important enough to him to make the first move.

Maybe, but I would still attempt an apology. DB clearly just thinks as no-one commented on the way she spoke to him, that it’s ok. Even an ‘excuse me, you don’t speak to adults like that’ would have sufficed. My DD was the queen of tantrums when younger so I get the de-escalate, but there are some things that need to be said there and then and that’s one of them. Put the work in when younger about acceptable behaviour or deal with the consequences when they are older.

Sounds like he doesn’t know much about kids. But I also think he tried- he planned what he thought was a nice day and it went wrong, as sometimes things do.

In your shoes I’d apologise but in a way that acknowledged that really it was a case of frayed tempers at the end of a long day.

Unless there’s a heap of backstory, I certainly wouldn’t lose a relationship with my brother over a child having a meltdown. You’ve had responses telling you not to apologise - easy to say when it’s an abstract question of apportioning blame and when you’ve only allowed yourself to consider one side of the story.

How is your relationship in general? Is it something worth saving/fighting for? Does he bring anything positive to the table? If yes, then I'd do an apology like a PP said about the day/meal being ruined.

Also, it's a very good lesson for you to learn to not go along with things when you know it's just setting up your kids to fail.

It's not a family member's place to tell off another person's child. I would never, ever do that for my nieces and nephews. He overstepped and then made it worse by being incredibly rude to you. What your 6 year old did or didn't do is irrelevant. He is a grown up.

It is a bit odd for a 6 year d to shout at someone for being g in ‘her chair’. I’d expect that from a 3 or 4 year old but not aged 6. Although it all
sounds like a bit of a shit show. Tired hungry kids and adults and drinks spilt etc. I can’t believe he’s holding a grudge about it.

He sounds awful sorry

I I don’t think you did a single thing wrong and he set you up for a difficult meal because he wanted somewhere nice for his girlfriend? Selfish arse.

Tell him he doesn’t get to criticise your parenting. It’s a tough gig, you are trying your best. Until he can find some compassion and tolerance of what kids need he can stay away would be my take

I'm the parent of an SEND child. I really couldn't put up with this nonsense from him and would probably say something like "DB I'm sorry you are upset and I want a relationship with you but if you can't or won't accept and love my kids without judgement then you're putting distance between us and I can't fix that because my kids have to be the priority".

You either want a relationship with him or you don't. I would 100% have apologised at the time if my child raised her voice and shouted at someone, it's not acceptable. However, your brother clearly isn't used to being around kids. But not speaking for 6 months about such a non issue is crazy. Just apologise and move on.

Your DB sounds very uptight and rigid in his opinions and unrealistic in his expectation in this scenario. Your husband was actually (accidentaly) the cause of this, not your daughter. A child would cry an be upset in this situation. He has no right to criticise your parenting and needs to chill out.

So did she apologise to him at any point?

Your brother is being very dramatic, but I do think your daughter was very rude and should have been told to apologise.

Apologise Now and then wait till he has kids and feels mortified later

Your DD was rude. I agree with previous posters you should have reinforced what your brother said. He was trying to help and make her more comfortable. The least you could have done is said you will speak to her and she will apologise when she has calmed down. There is a difference between going off with you and getting rested and snuggly in her PJs and snivelling about how she knew she was wrong - and then all is forgiven on your part - to you accepting her apology and supporting her to then apologise properly to her Uncle. Also like previous Posters have said there are teenagers who have learned this behaviour from children and give boo-hoo apologies to their Mummy but then go back and stick a finger up to the person they wronged - meanwhile mummy is there defending them “they apologised to me and I accepted in your behalf so let’s forget all about it”
If your DD is ND then you need to model behaviour so she doesn’t learn to use it as an excuse

Absolutely ^

I do think your brother was in the wrong to have a go at her - it's not his place to do so
I don’t think he was wrong at all. An adult has every right to tell a child not to speak to him like that. I find the parents who say ‘I’m not having anyone tell my child off’ are the ones with kids with awful behaviour. As the parent of an autistic child I know exactly what it’s like to deal with a child in meltdown, but I don’t think the uncle did anything wrong here.