Would you expect an apology in this situation?

[TheGruffalochild]

About half a year ago we visited my db in another city with ds2 and dd6. We had a long day looking around busy museums, walking around the city and then a meal at a pub. By the time we arrived for the meal the kids were exhausted. I always try to sit outside with the kids because they behave better and it doesn’t disrupt others if we are a bit loud chaotic and to be honest try not to eat out too much with them because it can be challenging. However db insisted we sit inside because he wanted it to be nice and he had invited his gf. (They don’t have kids)
As predicted, inside ds2 fell asleep and woke up as the food was arriving, crying confused at where he was and just general post nap grumpiness. Dd6 food came and wasn’t what she expected so she was a bit grumpy about that. Then, while trying to sort out ds, my Dh knocked over dds drink and spilled it all over her clothes. Dd started crying, got up out her chair and I was trying to dry her when db came over and started to clean the table. Dd was starting to enter meltdown mode, and seeing db sat in her chair raised her voice at him and told him hey, get out of my chair. My db told her off for speaking to him that way.
Noticing the situation was escalating I asked dh to remove the kids and take them back to the hotel room, which he did swiftly.
My db then started laying into me about my parenting and kids behavior and I told him he was out of place. Some back and forth went back about who was right/wrong and then I also left.
We didn’t speak for six months, but recently I reached out to make amends.
DB is insisting I should have immediately apologized for dds behavior and he felt disrespected and I crossed his boundaries by allowing her to talk to him like that. He won’t move on until I apologize.
My take on it is:
He already told her off himself
I was too focused on dealing with the meltdown unfolding and sorting everyone out to apologize immediately
I was tired and hungry myself and it wasn’t the best moment to start attacking my parenting
Kids will be kids. I don’t expect apologies from other parents when their kids meltdown and I’ve seen much worse (biting hitting swearing etc.) from other kids meltdowns
I warned him the pub setting wasn’t right

He was sitting in her chair and in her space while she was in stress. He should have just let me and dh deal with it.

AIBU?

I think you were a bit unreasonable not to either apologise for what your dd said at the time or (preferably) got her to do so slightly later

that all being said your db clearly has no clue and is hugely unreasonable to a. Have a go at you when he clearly has no clue and b. to still be holding a grudge. He has a massive learning curve to come if he wants kids. Assuming you want a relationship with him you should both apologise to each other (him for dragging you all around all day and not letting you sit outside) and try and move on

Your DB is a bellend.

no clue about kids.

I can’t believe earlier posters saying there’s some kind of equivalence and that your behaviour wasn’t great. Who deals well with their own kids’ meltdowns?? Sadly by the time you get the experience to deal with this well they’ve all grown up.

you’re only mistake was by putting your brother’s preferences ( indoor pub- not kid friendly- poor food options for fussy young kids) before your family’s needs.

Tell him he should’ve listened and if he wants to have dinner with you all, it’s going to be the local harvester with play barn attached.

Noone looks good here. It’s a shame you took the kids back to hotel room. I would have just asked DH to take kids outside for a quick sec to calm down whilst you cleared up to De-escalate the situation. But then come back and eat nicely - including db apologising for sitting in dd chair and dd apologising for speaking rudely. No, I wouldn’t have apologised as the parent as I would have resolved it. (Although I assume DH apologised at the time about the drink). By removing the kids you escalated the situation and I can see why db got pissed off and you should have apologised for ruining the evening. The 6 year old shouldn’t be having a tantrum about the food - but I completely understand about the being wet.

Why shouldn't the brother apologise for telling off a grown woman and sulking? He comes off the worst imo.

This.

he’s being an idiot.

Respond to him from your daughters perspective.

"I was taken to a noisy unfamiliar environment and although I was enjoying the experience if became a bit overwhelming and I saw a quiet space so my mum took me to that to help me regulate.

My uncle obviously doesn't understand me as he was complaining about this.

Then we were going for some food in a strange place, we wanted to sit outside as its quieter but my uncle insisted we sit inside. My little brother fell asleep as he's 2 and was tired, he woke up in a strange environment was was upset. My food arrived an it wasn't what i expected and this started to me make a bit wobbly. Daddy was trying to calm my brother when he accidentally knocked the drink over me so I became overwhelmed and stood up whilst mummy tried to sort out my clothes. My uncle then sat in my seat whilst cleaning the mess up. I was in a confused start and told him to get out of my seat. He then shouted at me so daddy took me and my brother back to the hotel."

I'm sure your daughter didn't mean to be rude to her Uncle but ND kids struggle with tone and in such a disregulated state will have just blurted it out. Your brother clearly doesn't know much about ND and ignored your warnings then complained when the warnings came true. Ask him to look at it from your daughter's point of view.

If he is insistant their must be an apology then you need to insist that help needs to apologise for not heeding your warnings.

OP is your DD ND? I ask because you’re talking like she is, saying she has meltdowns, using the sensory room etc. I think there’s a world of difference in parenting when you’ve got an ND child. My own daughter while in a meltdown, cannot rationalise anything and needs to be over the meltdown before you can talk to her. However, I would have made her apologise to her uncle, even if this was a phone call after the event.
Its a fine line between understanding your ND child but also trying to help them understand social norms and helping them be able to navigate situations like this.

Sorry why is everyone assuming the little girl is ND? Is this because the OP has used the word meltdown? OP talk to DB like adults. It was a situations that got out of hand, DD was tired and upset and a bit rude but he is holding a grudge over something petty. He is being a prick. It is over now he either moves on with you or loses a sister because a 6 year old spoke to him in the heat it the moment in a way he didn’t like.

I can hard relate to this!! Advice from bitter experience is be the bigger person; if you would quite like to save the relationship (and as you've posted here it sounds like you feel bad about the fall out even though imho you did nothing wrong) do as half hearted apology as you can get away with (this bit will be painful but over text is my preferred medium) and then sit back and wait for him to have his own kids. Revenge is a dish best served cold....

Also yeah I do think your DB needs to let it go as it was 6 months ago. Incredibly petty behaviour on his part.

Dd does not have an nd diagnosis but my db and I do - so I have my suspicions. She’s extremely sensitive to sensory impulses. Also at that time she was waiting for an operation on her ears and nose - so her hearing was very poor. In loud areas with different noises she struggled to distinguish between sounds and everything was loud but muffled. Since she’s had the op - can breathe better and hear normally - her behavior and ability to cope with things has improved massively. Not to dripfeed but it gives a bit of extra background around dds needs at the time.

I think this thread demonstrates the differences in opinions around parenting. Camp A focuses on understanding the child and adapting responses to correspond to that need and Camp B focuses on setting an unnegotiable standard and expectation for children delivered in the moment no matter what. I think each method can be best depending on what kind of child you have. I’ve learned that DD definitely responds to A better and actually my son needs in the moment parenting like B because he’s forgotten about it 10 minutes later otherwise.

My issue with DB is he is Camp B and wants to enforce that on my family and isn’t respecting my decision to follow A. Even if he felt in this case he was treated incorrectly, he could have waited for a more suitable time to address it with me. It was him, his gf and me left at the table which felt like 2 against 1. I had managed not to lose my temper with my kids but that also meant I was in the process of regulating myself and was about to start my meal, which was going cold by this point. Everyone had eaten at the museum while I was with dd coloring but this was my first meal since breakfast. And then bam he starts ranting at me.

Looking back, I was the black sheep in my family. Anything that went wrong on a day out or meal was somehow made into my fault. I think it’s wired in his brain to be angry when things go wrong, even if it’s just one of those things. Therefore I think I need to cut contact with him.

I’ve tried talking to him and he just replied with walls and walls of text about why I’m wrong. Refuses to talk on the phone,

Actually I've just seen your update. In which case I would totally distance myself from him until he grows the fuck up!

No, its not that people expect better behaviour from a 6 year old, they expect better behaviour from her grown, adult parents.

I wouldn't bother anymore. You tried to reach out and he's clearly still got the hump, because he didn't like a six year old telling him to get off her chair. Six months ago. I'd have burst out laughing on the spot during an incident like that. It's clearly chaotic what happened but why not just laugh it off. He sounds like a fucking sad case quite frankly.

The parent carries that responsibility for them.

If that’s the case then OP should have apologised for her DD behaviour at the time.
If DD was having a tantrum she needs the behaviour correcting if she’s having a meltdown then we still don’t just let that slide, a discussion should still be had after the event

my brother doesn't have kids so often I need to manage his expectations. I wouldn't have capitulated on lunch, and if my kids aren't used to a sit down meal after a days walking I'd be saying we're only fit for McDonalds- we'll meet you later. So I think there's that part to consider- this situation was inevitable and it's up to you as the parents to avoid it.

Obviously some melt downs are unavoidable and could happen in any situation regardless of how the morning has been. Again I think it's up to you as the parents to manage the situation. I'd apologise to my brother- and have for my kids behavior.

I can totally see his side, even the museum bits. If he has no kids you need to be able to say to him if you'd like to come to the museum this is how we do it, this is dd6's needs and this is dd2's needs. And then let him take or leave it, instead of you both going in with different expectations.

Suspect OP's brother and girlfriend are in that well known perfect parent club without (yet) having children themselves or any understanding about the realities of very young, tired children.

He's being a dick. You don't owe him an apology.

It sounds like you were both in the wrong for the reasons PPs have said. I don’t think your brother is a dick or an arse or whatever other people have said. He is upset which he is allowed to be that dd spoke to him disrespectfully. It’s up to you whether you apologise or not. You can’t change him so maybe just see him without the kids or maybe only texts and calls until they are a bit older.

If she’s having a meltdown we still don’t just let that slide, a discussion should still be had after
Are you parenting a ND kid? Because my ASC kid, during meltdown mode, has no idea what they’re saying or doing, can’t control it and often doesn’t remember it. So “a discussion after” on how they were wrong is like, for example, telling an epileptic child who’s wet themselves during a seizure that it was totally unacceptable (sorry epileptics if that’s a crass comparison). They can’t control it! A telling off after just piles on shame which leads to even more dysregulated, challenging behaviour, when what most ND children need is (labour intensive) support to spot the triggers, avoid the build up etc, which I bet, given her updates, this OP spends a tonne of time already working on with her kid

Deep breath here OP. First, remember to take parenting advice from people who don't have any children with a grain of salt. DB will probably change his stringent views if/when he becomes a parent. I don't think DB was BU to challenge your DD when she was being rude, nothing wrong with that generally. I do think you should have had a word with your DD to let her know she was in the wrong for raising her voice, surely at age 6, she's at least starting to understand rudeness. Perhaps your DB just wanted you to acknowledge that your DDs behavior wasn't acceptable rather than you getting defensive about it? If you and DB generally get on well, then I think I would try to make amends. However tell him that you can't apologize for something that you didn't do.

To still be upset months later over a 6 year old being a tired and cranky 6 year old makes him a dick.

You and your brother are both unreasonable. His expectations are too high; you should have insisted on sitting where you knew the children would be less likely to react badly. You are both unreasonable for letting this drag on for six months. I do think your daughter’s reaction to her uncle sitting down in her chair to clear up the mess was very rude. I would say that was bad temper about the food rather than a ‘meltdown’, as she hasn’t been professionally diagnosed with autism and I would argue a ‘meltdown’ is far more than a petulant retort. I would expect her to apologise if not at the time, very soon after. She is six and will know from school that she didn’t react appropriately. However, it is a very minor event and definitely not worth all the grief it has caused you and your brother. Move on.

Doesn’t really sound like OPs DD is in the same position as your child though. An ND child with complex needs is very different to a child that sounds like they’re just having a tantrum or upset over a spilt drink

edited to add and yes we have 2 ND children in the family

Tbh OP it sounds like you probably should just cut contact - if he can’t deal with your children being children, or discuss this like an adult with you later (whether that’s because he is ND himself, or because he has no experience of children) none of you are going to find meet-ups pleasant experiences.

Stick to Christmas cards for now.

I can’t believe you didn’t correct DD. I hope she doesn’t speak to her teachers like that. Awful that you have to choose to eat outdoors because your children cannot be trusted to behave. So for at least half of the year you can’t eat out as a family. Granted two year olds are more tricky but start as you mean to go on. Too many parent accept poor behaviour from their kids. She was very rude, you didn’t correct 0 - you 1- DD.
shocked at how many posters are saying kids will be kids😡 No! Teach manners and respect so that your outings don’t ruin it for everyone else. @TheGruffalochild