Would you expect an apology in this situation?

[TheGruffalochild]

About half a year ago we visited my db in another city with ds2 and dd6. We had a long day looking around busy museums, walking around the city and then a meal at a pub. By the time we arrived for the meal the kids were exhausted. I always try to sit outside with the kids because they behave better and it doesn’t disrupt others if we are a bit loud chaotic and to be honest try not to eat out too much with them because it can be challenging. However db insisted we sit inside because he wanted it to be nice and he had invited his gf. (They don’t have kids)
As predicted, inside ds2 fell asleep and woke up as the food was arriving, crying confused at where he was and just general post nap grumpiness. Dd6 food came and wasn’t what she expected so she was a bit grumpy about that. Then, while trying to sort out ds, my Dh knocked over dds drink and spilled it all over her clothes. Dd started crying, got up out her chair and I was trying to dry her when db came over and started to clean the table. Dd was starting to enter meltdown mode, and seeing db sat in her chair raised her voice at him and told him hey, get out of my chair. My db told her off for speaking to him that way.
Noticing the situation was escalating I asked dh to remove the kids and take them back to the hotel room, which he did swiftly.
My db then started laying into me about my parenting and kids behavior and I told him he was out of place. Some back and forth went back about who was right/wrong and then I also left.
We didn’t speak for six months, but recently I reached out to make amends.
DB is insisting I should have immediately apologized for dds behavior and he felt disrespected and I crossed his boundaries by allowing her to talk to him like that. He won’t move on until I apologize.
My take on it is:
He already told her off himself
I was too focused on dealing with the meltdown unfolding and sorting everyone out to apologize immediately
I was tired and hungry myself and it wasn’t the best moment to start attacking my parenting
Kids will be kids. I don’t expect apologies from other parents when their kids meltdown and I’ve seen much worse (biting hitting swearing etc.) from other kids meltdowns
I warned him the pub setting wasn’t right

He was sitting in her chair and in her space while she was in stress. He should have just let me and dh deal with it.

AIBU?

@TheGruffalochild You and your husband sound like great parents, your children sound like normal children and your brother sounds like a rude, disrespectful, ignorant, selfish, demanding person. You and your kids accommodated your brother in what he wanted all day and then accommodated what he wanted at dinner too. Most young kids would find long hours at a museum exhausting and difficult to endure. And most kids would find being inside all day and night challenging. Children are people too. They have needs and should have their needs accommodated. Just like anyone else. He was completely inflexible.

You are their parents, you know them best and you understand how to have reasonable expectations for age and stage of development. He should never have undermined you or criticised your parenting. He has zero experience of being a parent and doesn’t have a clue. He owes you an apology not the other way around.

I don’t think your children behaved badly. As for the way your 6 year old spoke, I see that as her communicating assertively in the only way she knew how. Being assertive is a good quality to have. As we get older we learn how to refine it.

Keep up the good work. Stand up for yourself, advocate for your kids and don’t let him bully you. 💖

Same!

Dd was starting to enter meltdown mode, and seeing db sat in her chair raised her voice at him and told him hey, get out of my chair. My db told her off for speaking to him that way.

I am a very gentle parent but there’s no way I would have a child shout at someone for sitting in their chair.

It was not her chair at all and she doesn’t get to raise her voice at someone.

I would have expected a telling off in that situation.
Telling off doesn’t need to be shouting.

You do seem scared of giving them rules and you are making a rod for your own back.

If someone’s kid shouted at me or hit me etc I would expect the parent to apologise.
It’s basic manners.

If a dog jumped up at me, I would expect the owner to apologise.
Again it’s basic manners.

Kids will be kids and we’ve all been there when they’ve had a meltdown in public etc but it doesn’t mean you don’t apologise for their behaviour.

I completely understand his POV but questioning someone’s parenting is never going to go down well.

I would suggest both apologising and moving on from it because what’s done is done but it seems you’re adamant that that was DDs chair (still confused as to how unless it was a specific one brought from home) and you did nothing wrong.

You both sound as stubborn as each other.
If it was me and I wanted to make amends, I would apologise for him feeling like you didn’t do enough at the time but say that in future you will deal with it else the situation gets worse.

And in future, don’t meet for food.
It’s just not worth the stress of it.

Be very interesting how your brother will cope if he ever has children.

Apologies and move on ( you don’t have to mean it ) life’s too short

most of us are judging him as experienced parents
pre kids I will hold my hand up I would of been a bit like him
I don’t think a lot of people realise parenting isn’t black and white till you have kids

This. Classic case of people without DC criticising parenting - when they have no idea what it is like dealing with tired DC. Or - in the case of PIL, having long forgotten, or didn’t actually take their DC out to restaurants at that age …

I think all the parenting talk disguises the real issue here and that is the relationship you have with your brother.

Regardless of who is right or wrong this kind of argument shouldn’t lead to six months of not speaking or walls and walls of text about how you are wrong.

it also shouldn’t have been him and his girlfriend attacking you

Ok so the post you made at 8.52am; your DB is totally, totally clueless about children. It's almost laughable. Expecting a v young child to walk around a museum and quietly enjoy and understand the exhibition? Okaaaaayy... I actually really hope very soon he has children with his gf and realises how stupid he is being.

I encountered an older man like this in a museum; my eldest DS (who has autism and sensory needs) was walking quite heavy on his feet (he likes the sound as he's hard of hearing I think he can feel it) and the echo of the museum floor. I immediately went over and encouraged him to stop, we went and sat down away from the open space and he was fine, good as gold.

This complete clueless ARSE of a man marched over to where we were sitting and said that no children should be allowed in the museum as they are ruining it with their noise, and my son ruined his experience. Note he didn't march up to my DH to have a go at him, he waited until I was alone with my DS and my DH had moved away with our youngest (who was asleep in the pram at the time).

I think my DS had banged his feet for about 10 seconds before I then intervened and got him to sit away in the quiet bit. Where he was fine! And quiet, cuddling into me. Anyway a museum staff member who was standing to the side came over and said children were always welcome to enjoy the space as they wanted to and that my DS had done nothing wrong. I was v glad of the back up! The guy wanted them banned!!! There were other kids too shouting and screaming (which I actually thought were more disruptive than my DS) but the man didn't march over to them. I think because they were with their dad's and mums, they probably annoyed him too but he wanted an opportunity to vent and a single woman on her own suited him perfectly.

Your DB is like this. Children are CHILDREN it's madness that he's sulked about this for 6 months. FFS!

He's being controlling and pathetic.
His loss if he dosent see his sister and her family.

He can have an apology from your daughter once she reaches adulthood.

Otherwise, he's the one needing to apologise.

It might take until he's a parent himself and has had a few years of other people judging and criticising his parenting when he's doing his best before the penny drops for him though.

Your brother is a prick and I wouldn't want my children around him.

Let him off and do not reply.
If he ever has children he might grow the fxxk up.

You did nothing wrong.

I have to disagree with parents who are treating the noise that children make in a public place when they're enjoying themselves, and their tears or grumpiness when they are tired and hungry, as the same kind of thing as a child rudely telling an older family member to get out of 'their' chair in a pub. The first two need tolerance and understanding, but the last needs a reminder from a parent that this isn't acceptable behaviour - otherwise how will they learn?
Of course DB was also out of order the way he reacted.

Hopefully DB will bring them up in a way that allows him and his gf to be able to eat out and not have to sit outside because a six year old can’t behave. Children should be part of your life and from the earliest age possible be taught how to behave. Too many parents think awful rude behaviour is acceptable.

He’ll cope quite well I’d imagine as it sounds like he’s all for discipline and correcting bad behaviour.

Of course he does because he doesn't actually have any children.

My six year old can eat in a restaurant and we often go to cafes etc. together. But it’s not manageable in combination with my two year old and in a dark old English style pub with a very adult menu.
We live in Europe and my db still in UK. So she hadn’t started school at that point and is used to sitting outside because where we live outdoors eating is still a thing, even in winter.

Dd has received a lot of praise at school from her teachers for her assertiveness. She’s actually usually a very well behaved girl. She gets up and dressed in the morning without bother, helps me with housework, does homework no questions asked, goes to bed without issues. But there are certain things she can’t deal with and that day out was especially difficult

What difference does that make? I have children and I believe in discipline and correcting bad behaviour.

Some of the suggestions here are hilarious. People really thinking proper meltdowns could be controlled with firmer parenting. If it wouldn't be so distressing for the child I would love to watch them try that and see how it went for them.
They are in fight or flight mode. "Not standing for this behaviour" will escalate and prolong it, being fight or flight someone will get punched or the child will run. Literally.
And they usually mask at school or with unfamiliar people who they know will shout and make things worse, it's self preservation. that's why the meltdowns at home are usually bad. That pressure has to release somewhere.

My child generally behaves well and if something like this happens I talk to him after and help him understand and work on helping him know how he can avoid it happening next time. Sounds like the op does the same. They can't help getting overwhelmed and our jobs as parents is to help them recognise it coming and help them find ways to take their foot off the accelerator and find ways to regulate. When then meltdown is happening it's terrifying for him, he needs me to be his safe place, not the source of more stress.

Gruffalo, you are not taking on board what we are telling you. There is fault on both sides here. You should not have gone along with your brother's plans if you knew it would be a difficult day for your DD. The fact that you weren't able to do that suggests that you don't have a healthy relationship with him.
So you allowed him to bulldoze you, and your DD ended up about to go into meltdown.
You understood that, your brother didn't.
Your DD was then very rude to your brother. You should have apologised then, because you shouldn't have allowed it to get to that point. Your DD should have apologised later.
You know your DDs limits and your own. If you can't stand up to your brother for your own sake, then do it for her. It's no good giving in to him when you know what the result will be, then complaining because that's the result you get.
You know what works and doesn't work. So do what works. Tell your brother that's what you are doing, give him the chance to see that your way works. If you can't do that, or he can't accept it, then keep your distance from him.
The worst thing to do is to do it his way then suffer the inevitable result.

I completely agree.

And as the parent of the rude child I would have apologised immediately on behalf of my child and told her that it was rude.

DB probably wouldn’t have then got involved and if he tried to I would have said I would deal with it.

I would be annoyed if a child did something so rude and the parent didn’t even say anything to the child or apologise to me.

OP your child behaved badly.
It doesn’t mean she is a bad child or this is regular behaviour for her.

But most parents would be mortified if their child spoke to someone like that and would immediately apologise to DB and tell DD it’s not acceptable.

No child is perfect, it doesn’t exist.
But you have said that you try and eat outside because of their behaviour and that eating out can be challenging.
And so this does sound like an ongoing issue.

Even just your DS waking up grumpy from his nap shouldn’t have been too difficult to deal with, as there were 2 parents and he would be eating soon.

I understand that it’s very difficult to hear someone question your parenting - I absolutely hate it.

But none of us are perfect parents and you need to take on board that DD was rude and there were things you could have done to make the situation better (eg tell DD not to shout and to ask nicely and apologise to DB on her behalf).

Once you acknowledge that, then you and your DB can move on from it.

Same here and as someone that is autistic with autistic children, I have to say that what parents of NT children describe as a "meltdown" is no such thing.

Meltdowns are a completely exhausting experience both from the person having them and those around them and when people describe tantrums as meltdowns it trivialises what we go through.

Oh and you should have got your child to apologise as soon as they had calmed down, ie the same day after they had got their cuddles with Daddy. I have 6 children on the spectrum, including 1 that was non-verbal at that age. Each and everyone of them would have been told that they don't speak to anyone like that and been expected to apologise, even the one with a PDA profile.

Making them apologise or apologising for their behaviour while they're still stressed and before helping them understand is telling them that they have been bad. Can't speak for anyone else but mine is hard enough on himself for getting things wrong without me adding to it. If the brother hadn't laid into her about her parenting to the point that she felt she had to leave too I expect she'd have asked her daughter to speak to him or make a card the next day. That's what I would have done, but not until my kid understood. I would ask mine to apologise for saying something that upset my brother, but not that he needs to apologise for the meltdown. That bit isn't his fault and it's my job to help him learn to head them off before they reach boiling point.

Seriously all the comments saying to correct behaviour and use discipline. Do you really think we haven't thought of that?

The only solution in the face of this crap that avoids being told you're not parenting well enough is not to go anywhere in public. This is why parents of kids who are different feel so isolated.

For the sake of your relationship, just apologise for your DD being very rude and explain that you were very flustered and didn't deal with it well at the time.

He'll realise how hard it is if he has kids of his own one day.

DD was rude. However, you did tell her off. She is 6 so should know better. I'd have asked her to apologise.