Would you expect an apology in this situation?

[TheGruffalochild]

About half a year ago we visited my db in another city with ds2 and dd6. We had a long day looking around busy museums, walking around the city and then a meal at a pub. By the time we arrived for the meal the kids were exhausted. I always try to sit outside with the kids because they behave better and it doesn’t disrupt others if we are a bit loud chaotic and to be honest try not to eat out too much with them because it can be challenging. However db insisted we sit inside because he wanted it to be nice and he had invited his gf. (They don’t have kids)
As predicted, inside ds2 fell asleep and woke up as the food was arriving, crying confused at where he was and just general post nap grumpiness. Dd6 food came and wasn’t what she expected so she was a bit grumpy about that. Then, while trying to sort out ds, my Dh knocked over dds drink and spilled it all over her clothes. Dd started crying, got up out her chair and I was trying to dry her when db came over and started to clean the table. Dd was starting to enter meltdown mode, and seeing db sat in her chair raised her voice at him and told him hey, get out of my chair. My db told her off for speaking to him that way.
Noticing the situation was escalating I asked dh to remove the kids and take them back to the hotel room, which he did swiftly.
My db then started laying into me about my parenting and kids behavior and I told him he was out of place. Some back and forth went back about who was right/wrong and then I also left.
We didn’t speak for six months, but recently I reached out to make amends.
DB is insisting I should have immediately apologized for dds behavior and he felt disrespected and I crossed his boundaries by allowing her to talk to him like that. He won’t move on until I apologize.
My take on it is:
He already told her off himself
I was too focused on dealing with the meltdown unfolding and sorting everyone out to apologize immediately
I was tired and hungry myself and it wasn’t the best moment to start attacking my parenting
Kids will be kids. I don’t expect apologies from other parents when their kids meltdown and I’ve seen much worse (biting hitting swearing etc.) from other kids meltdowns
I warned him the pub setting wasn’t right

He was sitting in her chair and in her space while she was in stress. He should have just let me and dh deal with it.

AIBU?

I would apologise to put this situation to bed and maintain my relationship.
He will probably have children of his own at some point and then karma will intervene

Fraught situation! People who do not have children often do not understand the difficulties of having them eating in a more formal situation. Your DB ought not to have criticised your parenting - he knows nothing about it. On the other hand your DD at 6 should know not to reprimand her uncle in such a way - and deserved to be told off by both her uncle and you (which you did not do), so maybe you could look at that and apologise for not taking her rudeness seriously. DB sounds like hard work - he ought to have listened to what you were telling him by suggesting you sit outside.

The six year old was rude and ought to have been told off. Being assertive is all very well, but it does not equal being rude to adults in a family party when you are six.

I'd apologise that DD spoke to him that way and explain you talked to her after.
He thought he was helping and got embarrassed in front of his gf, which I think is more the issue.

He'll apologise once he has kids and looks back.

All this will be underscored by past events and accumulated perceptions of each other as siblings. These things always are. There will be a subtext in it somewhere. You should have apologised immediately for your daughter’s behaviour to be fair but he’s no doubt making a big thing of it because of what I discussed above. Just apologies now and understand things between adult siblings are rarely ever wholly ‘adult’ in the conventional since. You know too much about each other! 🤣

When db has his own children, he will realize that he owes you an apology. Apologize now for the off day, which sounds like you pushed kids beyond their limits, and then wait for db to learn first hand about managing toddlers when they’re tired and hungry.

Move on, let the past stay there… let it go. At the same time, learn from the experience. Be firm about your needs and those of your family. Eating out with young children can be stressful. Do what makes you happy. Picnics, or eating in a family friendly environment. If children are tired and/or stressed, eating in a restaurant is going to be hard work for everyone.

This

Where is the father in this sorry tale. Lots iof exscuses how both children were having meltdowns and how OP couldn’t deal with both, but two children and two parents, it should have been manageable.

I voted YABU, because you are the parents who are responsible for the care and wellbeing of your children. You shouldn’t have allowed the situation to occur- between the really long museum day not child friendly and the late meal.

And really a 6 yo (unless ND) shouldn’t be speaking to an adult like that. Tired or not.

if you want a relationship with your brother apologise (you don’t have to mean it). If not don’t.

No way would I have expected kids that age to be dragged around a city and museum all day, then out for a pub dinner without some sort of tantrum

Your brother needs to wind his neck in, he has no say in the matter as he's merely the uncle and onlooker

I don't have children, and I have what might well be unrealistic expectations of how they should behave and be managed. I have little tolerance for children being left to cry or allowed to lash out, and would expect a parent to nip it in the bud immediately, and apologise.

However, knowing it is probably my issue I just avoid being around children whose parents adopt the gentle parenting style as much as I can get away with. My nieces are allowed to "express themselves" by hitting people and being rude, and I just can't relax or enjoy myself in their company so I choose to opt out of it. Perhaps your brother should do similar?

I do think you should have apologised though. Regardless of the possible reasons for it, your daughter was very rude to him. You chose to go along with his wish to eat indoors, knowing it wasn't what was best for your family so that's on you.

It seems a strange hill to die on. But I often hear of family fall outs that seem to be over absolutely nothing.

It says in the post that the father was dealing with the son, and she was trying to get the daughter dry.

I wonder how it would have gone down with your brother if you'd insisted in a shorter museum stay and an earlier dinner sitting outside? I daresay his nose would have been put out of joint by that too. I don't think you can win in that situation. If you insist on a child friendly schedule you'll get told you're being too uptight and you need to go with the flow more, then if you "go with the flow" (=let the childless adults dictate the schedule) and the kids get tired and cranky that's your bad parenting.
You said you were the family scapegoat, I bet you're used to giving in to your brother the whole time. Now you have not one but two kids you have to balance their needs against his wants (your needs, like getting some lunch, remain ignored) - he doesn't like it and now you're getting the silent treatment until you give in and rope your kids in to pandering to your brother's wants as well. If I was in your position there is not a snowballs chance in hell that I would be doing that.

She mentioned their father multiple times actually 🤔

I genuinely believe that this parenting attitude that "no one may discipline my child but me" is behind all the poor behaviours we are witnessing in school and society. Children rule the roost as no adult is allowed to have the firm boundaries children need in order to feel secure.

My 5 year old would certainly not behave in restaurants as your DD did, and my automatic reaction would have been to apologise to DB and ask DD to do the same for being rude before addressing her upset. I currently have my DD's (wonderful and childfree) godmother staying with us, and throughout dinner she was assisting us by firmly reminding DS (just turned 3) of non-negotiable tablets manners. Frankly as she should, given she was the poor sucker sitting next to him and he was getting overly excited.

The difference that a lot of people are refusing to even try to understand is that a meltdown is not a tantrum.

Yes, if a child is throwing a tantrum because they didn't get their own way you make them understand that this is not the way to get what they want, you're firm and you control the behaviour.

If a child is in the rumbles before a meltdown they are panicking. They need calm and gentle behaviour to help them calm down, a familiar person who knows what will help, behaving predictably. Someone they don't know well shouting at them and "not standing for poor behaviour" will make the situation more distressing for the child and escalate things to an explosion.
You can bleat on all you like about firm boundaries and not standing for poor behaviour but a meltdown is not something they can control once it is happening. Until they have learned to head it off when it starts to build (which not even all ASD adults can manage 100% of the time) they need help to get through it.

Tiring busy activities in a museum that I guess she'd never been to before, where she DID do exactly the right thing and removed herself to do something that would help her regulate when she started to feel overwhelmed. Then going to a restaurant but at restaurants we always sit outside! what's going on? Then the food wasn't what she expected to arrive then a drink got tipped over her and someone sat in her chair (which she would probably have retreated to! it's where she was meant to be sitting and she was probably already starting to panic) She stood no chance, she couldn't sit in 'her' spot and had no quiet place to remove herself to to help her regulate, then the brother shouted at her on top of everything else.

Parents of children who have meltdowns speak to them afterwards when they are no longer in fight or flight mode and feel safe again, we help them to understand and work out coping strategies together to avoid it next time. It's bloody hard seeing your child in that state and knowing that all these perfect parents are tutting away because all Cedric needed was to be told he couldn't ride his pony tomorrow if he didn't buck up his ideas and these children need a firm hand.

Very sad difficult situation, I would encourage you to eat as a family around the table every day together kids need to learn how to behave at the table, no matter how young a two-year-old I would’ve kept on my lap if it was grumpy
if your children are generally unruly at the table, then can’t sit take a book take some crayons,
and don’t organise huge unmanageable days

Interesting that everyone is ignoring the fact that OP said both her and DB have been diagnosed as neuro-diverse. I also have a problem when planned outings dont go as they should. I know that life often intervenes but I have to dig deep to find that flexibility within me!
Perhaps this is why your DB has got fixated on this apology?

Anycrisps left has hit the nail on the head here. I've been reflecting on the past meet ups with db in the past and it has been constant passive criticism of me and some situations where he was actually shouting and swearing at me because i didn't agree with his opinion - not related to my parenting but to other topics.

For example, last time he visited he was having a row with his gf and asked me for advice. Having heard the story, i gently pointed out he was also kind of in the wrong and should try making amends. He ending up shouting at me, tell me to fuckoff, and that i needed to go to therapy because being raised by our parents clearly meant i had no idea how to be in a relationship (i have been with dh for over 10 years)

Therefore, it seems out of order to demand an apology from me now, for the behavior of a six year old. And if it had been anyone else, I probably would have apologized, and if it had been addressed in another way, i would have apologized then too. But they had literally just left and it was like, right here's a chance to lay into Gruffalo. And because it wasn't about me but about my kid, I stood my ground and said nope you're not lashing out at my dd in the same way you have always treated me.

And also thinking about how refreshing it has been the past six months not to deal with his attitude, I have decided to revert back no contact. I only reached out because my other sibling was encouraging it, but I guess that's their role in the twisted family dynamics and I have stupidly played into it.

Note taken on DDs behavior and like I said, she's made a lot of progress in the last six months since her medical issues were taken care of.

The problem as I see it, your brother does not have children. You had a full day. Eating out in a restaurant with tired children was a crazy idea. No is a necessary word to learn. Far better if your brother had had had a picnic with the children midday when they weren’t past their bedtime, tired and on meltdown. Both parties need to learn that children like routines.

OP your update makes all the difference. There is nothing you can say or do that will appease your brother. Whatever you do, he will find something else to criticise you for.
I can see now why you didn't feel like apologising at the time, and in your shoes I wouldn't have either.
The best thing you can do for your own sake is to cut contact as you say. You've tried, you don't have to try again. No guilt or regret, and your other sibling should understand too (and don't waste too much effort explaining to them, they should know).

He sounds like a precious a**hole especially for still banging on about it

And after seeing your update I would keep my distance - he sounds like he has lots of his own issues that you do not need on your plate

@TheGruffalochild
He is being ridiculous, a 6 month sulk over a 6yo mid meltdown being a bit rude? It wasn't his house, he doesn't get to dictate their behaviour. Any normal person might have judged internally but would have waited til things settled, said, aww, I guess they've had a long day and changed the subject. Going on a rant about your parenting was totally out of order.
And what you said about the museum is worse. HE decreed that she was there to learn history (at 6!) So should do xyz? How about, no, we came here to enjoy a family day out in a way that we can all enjoy?
What he is demanding an apology for is something any rational person wouldn't have given a thought about after 10 minutes had passed.
Honestly, I don't jump to cutting off family, but I don't hear anything about him thst says his presence in you or your children's lives is valuable. I wouldn't make an 'I'm going no contact' announcement, its just playing into his drama. I'd just respond to say ' sorry you feel that way, my parenting choices aren't up for debate, fortunately as we live xyz away from each other it isn't something you need to worry about as it doesn't affect you. Have a good Christmas, give my love to GF' ie, something that makes it clear you are done discussing this but doesn't give the conversation more weight than it deserves. If he chooses to then continue to not contact you then that's on him and you can't be be blamed for 'cutting him off'.
If he grows up and decides to just forget the issue and resume normal contact then be casual and friendly, but if he starts trying to lecture you on your parenting or life again then shut it down hard.
Basically put the future of your relationship on him, whilst accepting (hoping) that it might lead to him pulling back from you.
It just seems easier all round to allow a relationship to become distant but still civil than have a big blow up and family drama and potential awkwardness if you ever need to meet for family events etc in the future.

TL DR- he's a twat, tell him to get bent and move on 😅

"(They don’t have kids)"
That's all there is to say. I would be embarrassed to lecture anyone about a lifechanging experience that I don't share.
Definitely YANBU and of course you're owed an apology. However I don't think you'll recieve one and I'm not sure if expecting it is wise/useful for you.
Reassure yourself (you were not on the wrong), establish some boundaries in the relationship with your db and move on doing what's best for you and your family 🙂