To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

[BadSkiingMum]

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

Eh?

Toxic feminism is now the feminism that WANTS to protect vulnerable women in single sex spaces ?

You are clearly not indifferent about bathrooms. If you were you wouldn't be spending hours calling women who are concerned about the rights of women 'toxic'.

Indifference might look like coming on a thread and saying that you don't care. It doesn't look like scolding women who do care.

What is your battle anyway? I have literally no idea what your battle is. You are indifferent and don't care so there is no battle.

And as for the culture, which culture are you talking about ? Is it the one where women have had to start fighting for rights to single sex provisions because a bunch of other people have started to unilaterally remove those rights, do you feel the same about other spaces such as sports?

If you were primarily concerned with protecting women you wouldn't shoehorn transgender people into every conversation about men in women's spaces. Even if you think trans women are men, they are not the issue here.

Have you not read the thread? Or even the post you have quoted? I haven’t made this about trans people at all… you did.

Genuinely, don’t let it get to you.

Who mentioned trans people?

All male people are the issue here. This is an issue with quite a few different aspects.

There are no sub groups of male people who are exempt from safeguarding protocols. That is only part of it though.

The change in provisions for female single sex spaces to gender neutral only, not single sex spaces and added gender neutral spaces, cannot be denied to have been the result of campaigning by lobby groups for either these gender neutral facilities or for society to allow any male who wants access into female single sex spaces to have less resistance from female people to have this access. It would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

However, it is male people and their very own behaviour that is the issue being discussed. Whatever their motivation to access toilets where female people are expected to be using that toilet. All male people. And women discussing it have legitimate and valid concerns about those male people.

Personally I don't see how constantly asking questions where the only answer can possibly be "wrong" and demanding answers over and over can be called anything other than aggressive. It's clearly aggressive behaviour to make people who don't agree with you look bad or go away so you can have your views because the only ones heard.

50% of women wanting single sex toilets in the link you posted means 50% don't care. That means there's not a majority either way so you cannot claim to have the backing of the majority of women.

Additionally if @lifeturnsonadime only knows women who do care about single sex toilets, then that is literally the definition of an echo chamber, only mixing with people the same views as you is an echo chamber whether you would view it that way or not.

No, I really am unbothered about bathrooms. Make them unisex, leave them separated, whatever - I need to use an available toilet and have no further preferences. I know that’s hard to believe, but I really am not bothered what happens with them. Same for sports.

I’m not scolding people for caring. Care, that’s up to you. I’m saying, fairly repeatedly; the conversation doesn’t need to be this barraging and angry.

I don’t have a battle. I’m not battling. I don’t want to battle, I can’t be bothered thinking of a battle to have, I won’t commit the energy to researching that battle. There’s no battle for me to have.

You’re currently fighting other women for your rights, we’ve got no control over your rights and haven’t taken any from you. I personally have not removed any of your rights, seems like a fairly pointless fight to have.

What happens, like it did here - is someone posts something, and then a load of angry women come and kick off about men, and then there’s a conversation about that instead.

For those of us who don’t want to be that way, it’s actually really draining to watch. I’ve basically stopped using X, because I cannot be bothered with the constant debate on there about this exact thing. It does push some women out.

“50% of women wanting single sex toilets in the link you posted means 50% don't care. That means there's not a majority either way so you cannot claim to have the backing of the majority of women.”

Are you referring to the you gov poll?

“According to this, UK women polled in August 2024 50% wanted only single sex, 42% wanted single sex in addition to gender neutral.”

Meaning that 92% of women polled ‘cared’ and wanted single sex toilets.

Agreed.

The level of pushing for answers just to disagree with and constant barraging is aggressive, and not necessary.

Genuine question here.

If you lose the “battle,” and spaces become gender neutral, we end up at a point where that’s the norm. What will those who care about that actually do - stay at home? Refuse to go out? Lobby all restaurants and art galleries who did it?

We’re all allowed to be angry about whatever we want or need, but people in positions of power don’t have to listen. If they don’t.. what then?

It honestly baffles me that these posters are claiming their behaviour is not aggressive.

I'm not invested in this topic either way, like a lot of posters here I really don't care. But it's plain to see that the anti unisex toilets crowd have a bee in their bonnet about trans people and are very militant about the cause.

the anti unisex toilets crowd have a bee in their bonnet about trans people

Hey, we're usually a 'brigade' in these parts. And thanks for the delightfully quaintly sexist 'bee in their bonnet' descriptor.

Millie Tant, too. How very nostalgic.

Yep. These militant debates hijack so many threads and it's exhausting.

Only on Mumsnet could a thread about a man committing a crime in a shared facility that he has access to not because it is unisex, but because he works there, turn into YET ANOTHER debate about trans women in women's bathrooms.

And the way these posters are continually saying "a minority of men" because they obviously don't want to call them trans women is so transparent. If it wasn't about trans women they wouldn't have bought into it that trans women have the same criminal behaviour patterns as me ln and they would just be calling them 'men' not the minority of men that want access to women's bathrooms.

It's so tedious.

What happens, like it did here - is someone posts something, and then a load of angry women come and kick off about men

Bloody feminists. Always banging on about something. They've got the vote, what the fuck more do they want? They really do my head in.

Who is angry?

It's so fucking tedious that every conversation about women retaining sex based spaces someone (and usually not the ones wanting to retain such spaces despite being presented with vast evidence about it how it's a good idea for a lot of women) bring up trans people. It's YOU bringing them up.

I couldn't give a fuck whether someone is trans or not. I just want spaces, that have generally been sex segregated since forever, remain so.

I find it so amazing that the ones who are different or 'don't care' are spending so much time and effort on this topic, 'you don't speak for us!'. Well, very good. You crack on in the gender neutral ones with the men then. Let us get het up about it. I want to take my six year old goddaughter to the loos without men being present, self contained cubicles or not (and they hardly are FYI). If you don't care, so what! Let me care.

I wish I had the same time to spend exerting so much energy on topics I'm 'indifferent about' as some of the folk on here.

I hate to misuse the phrase, but it’s not all feminists.

It’s the ones who come onto threads that aren’t about an issue, and then angrily make it about one. Like we all requested an education in women’s rights and what you think we should be.

Like someone said earlier - militant. Literally nobody is like “oooh yay, a bunch of women here to lecture me about bathrooms; time to learn!”

Unnecessary noise IMO.

The point is so widely missed.

You, like everyone else, can be bothered about whatever you please. Do you have to try and convince others that you’re right?

Do we have to use spaces like “women need,” no, SOME women need. The women who need it, need it. We all don’t, less generalising, because that does come off like speaking for us all.

I don’t think you should share my views on women’s spaces. You don’t, that’s fine. But in the reverse, whenever we say we don’t agree we’re issues with evidence and an attempt at unwelcome education that goes on, and on, and on.

Don’t agree, that’s fine. But more acceptance of others having a different view would be great.

What do you think the solution is? Scold's bridle?

It’s a discussion forum. If someone wants to present actual evidence to you about how making certain single sex spaces mixed sex COULD be harmful to some women, and you still think it’s not important - to you - then fine. They care so they’re obviously going to put more effort into their argument.

It’s the ‘I don’t care!’ but still engaging on and on trying to diminish concerns. If I don’t care or have concerns about something and I’m convinced nothing will change my mind I just ignore and move on.

I think the solution is people being allowed to have their views without being aggressively educated on the matter until the either give in or leave.

And I think you know that.

But sure, take the point to the extreme to make it look silly by suggesting scolds bridles.

Why even have the argument?

What should happen, is someone doesn’t agree with you, you think that’s fine and totally normal and don’t then barrage them with data to change their mind.

What is it about people not agreeing with your points that is so genuinely hard to take? It’s at best condescending.

don’t then barrage them with data

This is how discussions work, I'm afraid. When people disagree, we present reasoning and evidence to illustrate why and how.

The first mention of trans women was

lifeturnsonadime · Yesterday 13:29

So what's your narrative @PaganPollyanna , i've asked upthread.

Why do you put the wishes of a minority of males above the wishes of women?

The minority of males is clearly trans women. lifeturnsonadime and Helleofabore are clearly talking about trans women when they are using the phrase minority of males, they refuse to call them trans women either because they don't like the term or they are trying to be stealthy in their references to them.