To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

[BadSkiingMum]

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

So it boils down to 2 posters on this thread don't care about women's discomfort and they are arguing because not all 'womankind' object to unisex and gender neutral toilets we shouldn't be discussing it on the internet.

And we are wrong to ask questions about why the discomfort of some women should be ignored?

We are wrong to link evidence of harm to women?

We are wrong to say that we disagree?

This is mumsnet a discussion forum. I have no idea why these 2 posters are even on this thread if they don't want to 'discuss issues'.

All 'womankind' won't be pro- choice either so do you think that we should scrap abortion because there isn't consensus on it?

This argument is illogical and deliberate in it's attempt to shut women up about matters which impact us. It's a new version of 'no debate'.

Who benefits? Men.

Coats and large handbags. For work I carry a large one occasionally and it becomes rather cumbersome as you say to juggle it all.

If women and girls are harmed by changes to toilet provision, then it is not even up to the ‘majority’ to decide it is ok. It is for society to consider the people who are vulnerable and who will be harmed and work out a solution.

So I completely understand why you find the ‘alright jack’ attitudes confusing.

The other aspect is, how many saying that they don’t really have a problem with it yet have expressed a preference that they would rather single sex for any reason, will not appreciate successful campaigning to change the tide back to offering single sex instead of just gender neutral in locations where it is possible to have more than one toilet? And to making more toilets available just for female people where necessary so that queues are reduced.

Who benefits? Male people keep reaping the benefits with this latest move to gender neutral toilets in more ways than one.

I agree @Helleofabore it's not how society works to ignore the needs of the vulnerable.

I also agree that there has been a clever campaign to introduce gender neutral / unisex facilities.

I suspect the more that women have to deal with the realities of them the less favour they will have amongst the 'be kind' types.

It’s in that first sentence. Apparently we “don’t care about women’s discomfort.”

That’s the accusatory tone we’re talking about. What a leap to make. I don’t see the value in having a specific female only bathroom space, so that must mean I don’t care about any woman?

The unhealthy debate I mentioned, that’s it - your decision that those of us who disagree are letting down other women. It’s harsh, accusatory and completely unnecessary.

We get it, you hate all men and also women who don’t share your views.

Can you see the value to these Indian women https://www.habitatforhumanity.org.uk/too-scared-to-go/ of having single-sex toilet facilities?

We get it, you hate all men and also women who don’t share your views.

How ridiculous.

I don't hate you I just can't see how you claim to care about women's discomfort when you are sticking your fingers in your ears and are saying because you're not bothered you can't see why anyone else should be.

If you cared about women's discomfort you would acknowledge it.

But here you are post after post.

Edited to add I don't hate all men either. I dislike males who trample over women's reasonable boundaries because they put their own wishes first. But that's not an unreasonable reaction.

“Because that was the point all along. If it hadn’t have been, your series of questions for me wouldn’t have leant so heavily towards it.”

Coming back to this.

I think you have made a few accusations directed at me that you have never explained or shown why you have made the accusation. This is another one. I responded to your focusing on the group.

I asked the questions because you have kept trying to reposition my posts to be focusing on that one group. I thought me saying clearly early on that it was male pattern behaviour that concerned me and that I have maintained that discussion to include all male people would be an indication that I consider this an issue relating to all male people.

This stems from a general society issue of male violence against female people. All male people.

”I don’t need to gain a toilet, because I haven’t lost one.”

Good for you. And in a business where there is only one toilet, the choice is yours to use it or not. However, there are posters on this thread discussing their personal needs, and I do have this discussion in real life with people too, who want single sex toilets where it is possible to have more than one toilet.

I don’t think it is controversial to say that or to discuss it.

Yes. It is vital.

It always follows the same pattern.

Posters try to argue that there is no issue with unisex spaces
We go back and point out there is and why there is
They reply with “well whatever, I don’t care anyway”
We say “well, why are you even discussing it then”
They say all ranty-like “Wah, I am ENTITLED TO MY OPINIONNNNN” and then accuse you of shutting them down.

Except I haven’t seen anyone shut down. Nobody has been prevented from posting.
It’s the classic flurry of shite from a person who has lost a debate. They ran out of good counter arguments so got cross with you instead.

You are bordering on hysterical at this point. @Helleofabore has engaged in good faith the whole way and has shown absolutely no aggression to you or anyone else and certainly no hate!

And as for accusing you of not caring about women’s discomfort…
We are literally telling you we are uncomfortable with unisex toilets and you are literally saying that you don’t care.

Last night, I said this:

“Other women are again entitled to feel uncomfortable, discomfort, however they feel - but it still wouldn’t be representative of all womankind.”

Which I’m sure you’ll see actually doesn’t suggest I’m not acknowledging anyone’s discomfort. Hope this helps!

I’m actually not saying I don’t care, I’m saying that those issues are not representative of all women, myself included, so the firm debate around it alienates people who don’t agree. Who are also women.

You know worried, you are right. I feel that I can say this thread has crossed over into DARVO territory which is all part of the pattern.

The amount of dismissal and minimisation of women and girl's valid and legitimate concerns on this thread has been very weird to see.

So we just lob safeguarding out?
Do we no longer try to keep the perverts out, do we just say, well shite, it's ok it's only one pervert.

Do you lock your doors when you leave your house? Why bother.
Do you let your children run off anywhere? I mean why try to keep them safe, its obvious they'll meet a pervert soon, what could possibly go wrong. Shucks, the wee ones will have to deal with perverts one day, may as well start young.

Mmmm but because their discomfort is not representative of 'all womankind' you think their discomfort is less important than your opinion.

In other words you don't care or don't think that their discomfort is important enough for their needs to be met.

Every unisex toilet I've ever been in has been a room with a toilet, sink and lockable door.

And when they are not a room with toilet, sink, lockable door?

Schools, some restaurants I've been to once but will no longer visit, gym changing room with just a large empty room with benches and single toilets off to the side, and more, but yeah, your privilege is showing.

Then I'll add that rooms with toilet, sink, lockable doors aren't always the best choice. What stops someone hiding in there until you go in and lock the door behind you? What if you were taken ill in there and could not move? How will anyone know you are there? And more

I went in a gender neutral toilet in an art gallery Glasgow with a urinal in it. No sign on the door that that was going to be in there.

Absolutely disgraceful. I don't think any decent man would want that either.

That’s obviously the agenda you’re sticking with, but it is actually not based on me saying anyone is less important.

But hey, if that’s what you’ve decided I mean what I actually and have said that I mean isn’t the point.

So do you think that the needs of minority religious women and/ or sexual assault survivors or anyone else who for comfort and privacy reasons would prefer them, to have single sex toilets away from males should be met or don't you?

It's a straightforward question.

If you don't think that they should, please explain how that is consistent with you thinking their needs are no less important than anyone else's?

Erm, no. In summary.

I’m responsible for my needs, not yours or anyone else’s. I don’t think anyone’s needs are more important, or anyone’s preferences are less valid. I think that MY needs, and my preferences are.. what I’ve said they are. Anything beyond that is none of my business.

Similarly, nobody else is responsible for me either. When I say I don’t need a corner fighting, I mean it. I genuinely wouldn’t require, or wish for a spokesperson.

I think you’re confusing me with someone who has a passionate view on the subject. The questions you’re asking me - do I think this, have I considered that. No I haven’t and no I don’t, because I’ve spent literally no time getting heat up about it in either direction.

I’ve genuinely never been able to understand where those who have all the facts and figures and opinion around it, find the time and energy.

It certainly has
I was just reading back through the start of the thread. It was those posters in question that even mentioned trans people. We have all been saying we don’t want men - ANY men in women’s spaces.
Then we get the occasional post from @DadJoke accusing us all of being anti-trans hags when all we want to do is protect spaces that keep women safer than they would be if those spaces didn’t exist.

I read your post about the instances you have needed to use public single-sex toilets and the fact that you keep getting dismissed or accused of ‘making others look stupid’ or being angry or hating people is really winding me up.

No passionate view yet spends hours on threads where women do have passionate, evidenced views, yeh right.

Where do you find your time and energy given your lack of passion on the subject?

So indifferent yet here you are.

Completely laughable and transparent.

For those who aren’t bothered either way about women having access to a safer, single sex provision… do you care about young children having access to those provisions?

Girls and young boys (until they get old enough to use the men’s) will invariably use the women’s toilets. There is an age where they don’t necessarily need to be accompanied by an adult, but you wouldn’t want them to be alone in there with a strange man either?

The problem with unisex spaces is that we are unable to be as vigilant about this type of thing

Watch your 11 year old daughter walk in to a women’s toilet and see a man follow shortly after, you would probably want to go in too to make sure she is ok… because that man is walking in to a place that he shouldn’t be.
But if it’s a unisex toilet, your 11 year old daughter walks in and you see a man walk in after her, would you just stay seated and not go and check she is ok?
Will we need to start accompanying our children while they go to the toilet until they’re 18? Do women need to start going in groups to protect each other?

What I was asking is why my safety is any of your business, and where you find the time and passion to look for that evidence.

For the most part, my assumption is that we all have lives to get on with and passionately defending anyone other than myself isn’t a priority for me, nor is finding articles that back up any points I have.

What is becoming very transparent is that there is a group of women on here that share a view, and will group together to defend that view against anyone who thinks differently or doesn’t quite get why they’re so very informed on the matter.

My priority is my own life, and frankly even if I did agree with you I wouldn’t thank you for arguing my point repeatedly on the internet.

We are not a group, we are individual women with our own lives, views and priorities. If I did feel unsafe, I’m perfectly able to fight that battle myself and would far rather the people of MN didn’t do that for me by ramming their evidence on my concerns down peoples throats.

I am indifferent about bathrooms. What I’m not indifferent about, is the culture the last few years of a certain group of women making the rest of us vilified for not spending our days shouting at or about men. Toxic femininity is frankly, boring.