To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

[BadSkiingMum]

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

I’ll bite on your other list of separate spaces. None of them, in short.

If I was interested in sport, I’d compete. When I did need DV services, I used them. When I need the bathroom, I go to them. If I needed rape services, I’d use them. When I need to get changed, I get changed.

Hand on heart, not interested in who’s in them. I’m interested in if they offer the level of service I’d need, and would likely spend no time checking the biology of those in them.

It’s not privilege, I have needed those services. But I needed them in their own right, for whatever they provided at the time, and that was what mattered - not if there were any other people of whatever sex there.

My genuine view is that people should live their own lives without constantly bothering themselves about what other people are doing, in lots of areas of life, and spend far less time lecturing people who just don’t want the constant drama.

So why are you bothered by what we're talking about, here? Why are you here lecturing us on what we should think, feel, care about?

I'm very sorry to hear you had need of DV services.

It's good that you're not worried about your services being single sex. Other women are, and I'm not quite sure why you need to tell them that they shouldn't be? Why does it bother you that other women want single sex spaces?

I am sorry to hear that you needed to access DV services. I’m also going to say hats off to you that you aren’t generally scared of men after your experience - truly. That’s a remarkable amount of resilience on your part.

For me, in practice, even though I have also been on the received end of DV, I am not scared of men, either. In the real world, I would use a gender neutral toilet if that’s all that was available and probably pay little mind to whomever else was in there. I don’t walk around thinking about this stuff all day, nor do I believe that everyone has to agree with me when I do express my views.

However, when the topic does arise, and there is a clash between the rights of men and the rights of women, I do side with women on this and can absolutely see why many, many women do not want men in their spaces. To me, it makes logical sense that if men are given more opportunities to abuse, sexually assault or rape women, they will take them. Not every man, but always a man. Unisex spaces allow predatory men to hide in plain sight. That’s what makes me uncomfortable. Seeing one man go in to a women’s bathroom would raise suspicion. Seeing one man follow a woman or small child in to a unisex toilet would not. It will make us less vigilant.

I do however accept that you do not wish to be lectured or told you’re letting the side down by not agreeing and I won’t and don’t want to say any of those things to you. I have been on the receiving end of evangelical feminists (I do not for one minute believe that’s what is happening on this thread at all, however) so I get it must come across as tedious to you.

Maybe this is an agree to disagree point, I don’t think we are going to find any middle ground here.

I’ll answer both points together.

It doesn’t bother me a single bit what other women think. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and values. I’ve said in a few places on this thread that others don’t agree with me and I don’t need them to.

My issue is that when these conversations arise, whole groups of women arrive on mass to debate others, tell them how wrong they are, question what they think, campaign etc.

I absolutely accept, and borderline don’t care, that other people don’t think the same as I do. I don’t appreciate those people barraging others with their opinion and trying to convince them they’re wrong.

In honesty. When I initially posted - someone else had disagreed with a point about shared spaces. 2/3 women arrived with “why, explain yourself immediately, what about these people, what about that circumstance, what about this group?” And then very quickly we arrived at the first accusatory “you think men are more important than vulnerable women, you don’t care about women.”

Honestly thought “here we go again, give it a rest.”

That was why I responded to begin with. Big word perhaps - but it’s bullying. That person was entitled to their view without being harassed for it, and their intentions for having it being questioned.

No issue with people thinking what they think and wanting what they want. But there’s a drama, aggressiveness and constant need to tell others they’re wrong that I can’t and won’t get on board with. Nobody, absolutely nobody, required a Monday evening lecture on their belief system.

There is absolutely no reason to gang up on other people and try to convince them to join your campaign. If people don’t want to, they don’t have to, and don’t need actual days of convincing otherwise.

Thanks.

By the time I was 15, I was in a relationship with a 21 year old who would buy us alcohol. I’ll leave the rest open to interpretation. My first adult relationship was with a man who eventually tried to kill me.

I don’t say that for sympathy, I say it to make the point that to tell any woman they’re privileged is downright rude. We all live in the same world, and you’d be hard pushed to find anyone genuinely unaffected by male violence.

Telling anyone that their personal experience and how it affects them makes them less, means they somehow prioritise men, means they’re an uninformed idiot isn’t just unnecessary, it’s disgusting.

It’s not about prioritising men, it’s about prioritising yourself, and you can do that without shouting at people.

I too am sorry that you have had to use women's services.

In saying that, yes, abuse and emotional manipulation are 'big statements'. I don't make the claim of abuse lightly ever, having grown up in an abusive situation myself. So, when I do make that call, it is because I recognise the pattern as I have explained to you.

"The point, again, is that that gang/herd mentality"

And yet, you have directed your attentions with your accusations at me.

It is you who quickly took the 'lecturing people' tone, starting from when you insisted that your narrow interpretation about the OP, which was not just about the article, was the only correct one. In fact, even in those initial posts it was you who turned the discussion into one that focused on transgender people.

Ok.
In order to try and find at least some common ground, can you tell me how you would prefer a conversation like this to go?
I am absolutely not trying to lead you anywhere and genuinely trying to understand this from your POV.

Presumably, you believe that we are entitled to our opinion on this and you’re entitled to yours. I also assume that you believe we can express those opinions and that you can express yours. I think we would agree so far?

So what exactly is it about the way in which opinions have been express don’t you agree with?

There have been some pretty wild accusations from your side towards others as well, don’t forget. People have been accused of hating men, of being transphobic (despite this conversation having nothing to do with trans people) of being angry, furious, and of being bullies. I’m none of those things and I don’t believe anyone on this thread, including you, are any of these things.

So how should a discussion on a forum like this flow? Bearing in mind talk guidelines haven’t been broken as nobody has been deleted that I can see.

No it's any male, that happens to include trans women because they are male not because they are trans.

I'm not sure what part of this you are struggling with.

The reason you see the link with trans women is because you know that a lot of these spaces are now unisex / mixed gender because that is what that set of males has lobbied for.

Now I am sure that you are going to call me transphobic for pointing out that this set of males is males. If you are at the point that the truth is transphobic then I disagree with your definition of transphobia, because ultimately it is not trans people that we want to keep out of spaces, it is anyone who is male. That is the literal definition of a single sex space.

Women need those for safety and dignity.

Right. So you posted to disagree with the OP, along with someone else.

And then another two, or perhaps three, women posted to disagree with you.

This is discussion. That's just how it works.

I've read a few posts on here claiming that women are 'angry' or 'furious', and that assumption has been, as far as I can see, entirely projected onto them.

We often make assumptions about people's motivations, especially when reading text, which can, admittedly, be harder to parse as we're not using body language etc as we would in person.

Disagreement can be calm and polite. Someone disagreeing is not the same as them attacking you. Several people disagreeing is not bullying.

I think there’s a lot of talk about dismissing other peoples views, but unless I’m missing something that’s largely one sided.

When anyone disagrees what we see is:

That’s because you…

• Haven’t done any research into all the reasons I disagree with you

• Haven’t read any articles about..

• Don’t understand male violence

• Are in a privileged position somehow

• Don’t care about women and girls

• Don’t care about this specific group of women and girls

• Prioritise men somehow

• Have been brainwashed by the patriarchy

Those reasons are then repeated, on a loop, by lots of people.

The point that is missed is that some people don’t have any of those, they just don’t agree, and don’t need a reason not to. Freedom of thought, right?

If they can’t present you with their evidence, or justify themselves (which they don’t have to do), they’re either abusing you or telling you what to think. It’s neither of those things, we think differently, and the tens of messages trying to convince someone to change their mind will have literally no impact. It’s a wasted campaign and fight.

Abuse!?

Why when people disagree with you and call out the way you are arguing with them do you call it abuse?

You have called women abusive on other threads abusive for disagreeing with you too and I just can't understand it other than as an emotional manipulation tactic.

Okay.

So you’re telling me that you genuinely don’t look at threads like this one, where maybe 4/5 women are all responding to one persons posts, saying exactly the same things, on a loop and think “that’s a bit unnecessary.”

If 5 people were making exactly the same point as I was, and had already said it, I would probably just keep my mouth shut.

Otherwise, I would generally see that as bombarding and ganging up on someone. Which is why I used the phrase bullying.

A gang (as in a group) of women, all focussing their one point, on one person, waiting for them to give in or shut up disagreeing with them.

I’m not offended by it, or particularly sensitive to it, but that’s what it is.

Seeing that this thread has now moved onto trans issues.

Can I please ask you questions so I can understand your thought process.

Is your reason for objecting to single sex provisions because that would mean that trans women would be excluded?

If that is the case why do you think that the wishes of trans women to be in single sex spaces is more important than the feelings/ needs of women who require single sex spaces?

What do you think happens to trans women during the transition from perceiving themselves to be male to perceiving themselves to be girls or women that means that they no longer pose the same risk to women and girls as any other male?

Report it if you think you've seen bullying.

The thing that’s strikingly obvious to me looking at this conversation unfold is that it has been completely derailed.
We are now actually debating over the style of our debating.

Well played @SleeplessInWherever

Youve managed to shut the conversation down.

Right. So you posted to disagree with the OP, along with someone else.

And then another two, or perhaps three, women posted to disagree with you.

This is discussion. That's just how it works.

I've read a few posts on here claiming that women are 'angry' or 'furious', and that assumption has been, as far as I can see, entirely projected onto them.

Yes, it's strange that discussion board lessons are needed. There's always Google, which is a useful repository of information on a range of issues, as previously mentioned by pp.

@Worriedaboutsisterp just post past any posts you don't find helpful. Report any abuse you see from anyone.

I'm still yet to hear a single argument of why mixed sex spaces are better for women.

We have presented several reasons why some women want single sex spaces.

But there is a conspicuous lack of argument of why mixed sex spaces are preferable.

I suggest that an argument for mixed sex spaces that would outweigh the negative reasons and enough to over ride the reasons of women who want single sex spaces doesn't exist.

Women have different needs from men. Partly based on our biological functions, partly on social trends, partly on risk, partly on religion and belief. It boils down to privacy, safety, and dignity, as described in the Equality Act, which makes explicit provision for single sex services and spaces.

A couple of people don't care. That's fine. But to suggest other women shouldn't care, and moreover, shouldn't talk about caring or why they care, is not going to wash.

A couple of people don't care. That's fine. But to suggest other women shouldn't care, and moreover, shouldn't talk about caring or why they care, is not going to wash.

No and it doesn't wash.

Anyway the salient fact here is that most women don't want mixed sex toilets to be the only toilet provision. Off the top of my head, most men didn't either when surveyed.

I suspect the actual reasons for posters’ debating styles being attacked is simply because there is no good counter-argument.

There's often a claimed killer argument that they simply can't be arsed to make, apparently.

So yet more words just to say what's already been said -

I only care that I get to use services, toilets, sports because that's all I care about. Me.

I don't care that other women may not be able to use the things I use due to them being increasingly mixed sex as they don't want to be around men for a plethora of reasons because it's not up to me to be bothered about that. (But I'll continue to engage anyway and tell them how much I don't care, despite not caring).

I'm going to get upset if other people try to persuade me otherwise with evidence and stats as to why including men is harmful, as I don't care. (Even though I'm on a discussion forum).

I'm going to call people transphobic though because I DO care about women not including transwomen who are also men in these spaces I don't care about, but somehow take precedence over your bog standard men (whom I don't care about).

RIIIIIIIIGGHHHTTT. 🙄

I do have an argument for non-gendered loos, actually, is that they are better for mixed-gender groups e.g. a dad out with a small daughter or a hetero couple where one is carer for the other.