Advice - Our teen DS is out of control

[thetroublewithteens]

Apologies in advance for the lengthy post but we are at a loss

DS(17) has been in and out of trouble since primary 7 which escalated as he went through secondary school

Primary school contacted social services without our knowledge due to his behaviour but at the time I was so angry I pushed back on it. Refused their help.

DH & me both work full time, have done since we left school. We also have a DD who is the polar opposite to her brother and she has been around so much in her young life it's heart-breaking.

Fast forward to his first year at academy and things escalated at a terrible rate and any consequences we put in place resulting in him running away and being brought home by the police. We also had a DD at home who is 6 years younger and her life was miserable because of him. He was vile to her, really nasty. He's nasty to everyone really.

DS went into school Friday and told them I'd hit him repeatedly. It was all lies and myself and DH were contacted by CPS and demanded we come home from work to be interviewed. Whilst we were being investigated and because it was a weekend, DS was sent to my DM house to stay. The case was closed and he moved back home however we agreed to help from social work because his behaviour was so out of control. He would lie, steal, involved with drugs from a very young age (our house was searched at one point!)

Now - my DM was our main childcare, both of us work full time although in hindsight I can see I should have probably given up my job but we couldn't survive on one income at the time and I can't change the past so I need to make my peace with the choices we made at the time.

My DM has no boundaries and no consequences, DS knows this and plays her like a fiddle and it did not matter how many times we would say he wasn't allowed out as a consequence or that we were limiting his money because of how it was being spent. She would do what suited her and then lie to us. It was almost like anything for an easy life. She would buy him things that we'd said no to. Things we couldn't necessarily afford. He'd damage them, she'd instantly replace. He is spoilt beyond belief. We would repeatedly tell her she didn't have to agree with our parenting but she did need to respect our choices and sing from the same page but she would not listen. We told her she was giving him a life that was unsustainable and that we could not keep up and in turn he was playing us off one another. At one point social work even told her she is not the parent, we are the parent and she needs to start getting onboard with us.

DS picked up quite quickly that social work would send him to my DM and therefore he'd be allowed to do what he liked so he would go into school on a Friday and make up an accusation knowing he'd get sent to DMs and he could do what he liked. Eventually social work did click onto it after I wrote down every instance and pointed it out to them and then provided evidence he'd been seen out in town drinking and taking drugs.

During COVID, life was better because restrictions meant DS physically couldn't go out and could not go to my DMs house.
Social work closed us down completely because there was other children who needed more support and that was fine. In truth he was great in COVID, a much nicer person to be around. Done well with his school work. Honestly it was like night and day.

Once restrictions lifted and school returned, he was back to his old ways within 6 months. No more social work for us but he was back to skipping school, lying, stealing from us, drugs.. honestly it was horrendous. Every day was a battle but by this point I wfh full time so I am around to keep an eye on him more.

Until he met a girl and all hell broke lose, he's just shy of being 16 at this point - the accusations were back in full force along with everything else. We had an argument with him over his behaviour and he'd stolen more money from us. He shoved me down the stairs so he could get past and run away to the girls house resulting in me being in hospital with a dislocated shoulder. My DM collected him and brought him here to talk to us. We didn't go because he would not have got in the car, it would have escalated further. He point blank refused to stay here saying we were shit parents, I am a c* and a whole host of other insults. He said he would run away to the girls house so my DM said he could live with her because at least we'd know he was safe to a point although I knew (and he knew) that he would not be able to do what he likes with no consequences.

We tried our hardest to maintain contact with DS but he would block our phone numbers and ignore our messages. DM would also go through phases of blocking our number but sometimes she'd speak to us and let us know how we was. Other than that, we'd rely on mutual friends who might have seen him.

2 years down the line and he left school the moment he could, went to college and was put out and not allowed to re-apply for two years. He got a job and was let go because he is unreliable and in the past 6 weeks he's been given another job which he is barely holding onto.

He is no longer with that girl after she fell pregnant and he was vicious to her. We were in contact throughout that time and she miscarried. As cruel as this is, it was for the best because neither her or him were fit to look after a child.

Today I've had a long conversation with DM and the truth of how bad things are has become apparent. She used to make excuses for him but not today.

He's had two bank accounts stopped for fraudulently activity - large transactions that he cannot prove where the money is from or what it is for. We know it's drugs

He is dealing drugs and taking drugs, all under her roof. He has stolen a large quantity of money from her under the guise of booking a holiday which she stupidly transferred to his friend (because he hasn't got a bank account) believing they were paying but has no proof of a booking. She bought him a bike 3 weeks ago for his upcoming 18th and presumes he has sold it because it's missing and has been for a week or so. He demanded driving lessons so we halved in for an intensive course and he didn't turn up on the first two occasions so that was a waste of money. He has stolen jewellery from her house.
He invites his friends round when she is not home and they have her house a mess. When she goes to bed, he has his friends over drinking and taking drugs in her garage.
She has replaced the locks on the garage and house twice and he steals her keys and has copies made!!

Today she has said she is putting him out - neither her or us can see any way forward with him.

This all started when he was 12 years old, he is now almost 18 and things have got worse. He won't listen, has no respect and has a bad temper and can be violent.

I honestly don't see what we can do here to straighten him out. It's a waste of a young life.

Has anyone else experienced this - what can we do? How can we help him?

He needs to hit rock bottom, this may mean being homeless and drug using or time in prison. People like him unfortunately cant be told. They need to understand the full weight of the consequences by experiencing them.

Stop being his safety net, you are prolonging the inevitable. I know that goes against every instinct you have as a mother, but he is an adult now.

I have spent a lot of time around very, very troubled teens/young adults and from what i have observed, the loving but firm parents who consistently enforced boundaries and let their young adult hit rock bottom have had more success.

I hear this a lot and I disagree. There is no need to "hit rock bottom". Plenty of people start the climb back up before bottoming out. I don't think it's a helpful mindset.

You are listing practical routine things here.

You can show love via touch: When he was little did you hold him tightly every single day and tell him you loved him? Did you lay on the couch cuddled up with him regularly with the occasional fun tight squish?

You can show love via words: Did you ask him, do you know you are loved? Did you ask him how he is feeling? Did you really check in deeply with him regulalry? Did you praise him not for achievements in maths or football, but for his kindness to others, his curiosity about the world etc. Was telling him you loved him and every single day of his life thing.

You can show love via quality time: Did you play his favourite console games with him? Did you watch his favourite TV show with him from the beginning together once he'd raised it as being awesome to show interest and value in his likes. Netflix came out 10 years ago so this would have been possible. Did you read his favourite books to discuss with him?

You can show love by doing tasks for him (even if he can do it himself): "Let me put my lovely sons jacket on even though your a capable boy" and zip him up with a cuddle and playful squish. "Ive brought you some snacks whilst your gaming with your friends, love you", "I'll help you tidy your room and you can pick the music, Id love to know what your into"

You can show love via gift giving: Did you pick up some favourite treats for him, did you spontaneously gift him a small gift like some football stickers, or something to do with gaming, i mean fortnite was out 7 years ago, did you ever just pop in and say hey let me buy you a 1000 vbucks and you can treat yourself to a new skin etc. Small token gifts that were meaningful to him but not outlandish and showed that you were in tune with his interests.

How did you show love to him?

It doesn't sound like you are very clued up on emotional intelligence in general and this is something you could notice as a gap in yourself and look to fill with knowledge now going forward.

What I've just described above is love shown in various ways, known as love languages, have you heard of that concept before? x

I think this describes what emotional neglect looks like

Not once do you describe any interaction where you are only with one dc on a daily basis where you just talk to them about what their day was like and giving them time and space to open up to you

Everything sounds very routine driven with no description of anything that could be considered as having a deeper connection

I don’t think there weren’t any warning signs, it’s just that I don’t think you were looking for them as that would disturb the routine.

I think that the inability to understand what emotional landscape means or miss completely what emotional neglect looks like, whilst listing all the things you have done as a family shows pointers towards some sort of ND as a family
Even when most people would have given up work to spend more time with dc and to give dc what they need, to keep them out of trouble, this inability to cut down, claim benefits and to make things work seems more like someone who can’t change themselves

You say you offered to pay for talking therapy but make no mention of you ever just talking to him about anything on his own.
This isn’t about talking to him to fix things after the event but for him to open up to you and talk to you about anything

I think this is a child that was crying out for attention from his parents and he only got it when he behaved badly. I think if he was well behaved and moved out for university I think you would never have known who he was
The fact in lockdown how much better behaved he was, probably because with both parents around he got the attention he craved . I think this was the time you should have at least one of you cut down your work hours to be around for your child

Even when SS were called you took it as an affront against your carefully routined life instead of taking on board what they said and actually talking to your DS to listen to him and how he was coping

How awful for you all. I feel particularly sorry for your Mum - consciously or subconsciously you seem to be blaming her - but you and your husband are the parents here.

As a priority you need to do two things today - for a start give your poor Mum some support - her safety should be a priority. You and your husband should take a week off work as a matter of urgency to deal with the fallout. Your husband can help her reinstate her house, it's the least you both can do. She's done her best, not her fault your son abused her trust.

Secondly, Instagram your son and get your husband to meet him for coffee. It sounds like he is crying out for emotional support and a good male role model. Small steps, all is not lost - you can get through to him, but it will take time and effort and most importantly, emotional investment. I speak from experience here with a sibling - it's all a very messed-up cry for help. Our situation was finally resolved with fairly minimal outside intervention and lots of talking, tolerance and forgiveness on both sides.

I'm sorry I haven't read all the replies properly, I will when I get time. There is a lot going on.

I have contacted the police again regarding the drugs and money in DMs home, she did not want to because she is embarrassed what the neighbours will think. I am sure the neighbours have seen a lot of goings on in the past while but I didn't highlight this to her.

I've explained DS will either turn up looking for it or the police search - neither nice options but one is safer that the other. She has reluctantly agreed to police and one of us will be there when the search happens. The other will be at home with DD - I realise there is a variety of opinions on what we should and shouldn't do here. Some say be with DD or we should be with DM, but if one goes and one stays then we are neglectful.
DH is DS & DD dad - unsure why this is relevant but yes he is.
DH is very much present and when I write "we" - he is part of this. He has been there every step of the way and will continue to do so. This has been hell for him too.
DD has seen so much in her younger years I am convinced she has decided she wants to be nothing like her brother maybe that's why she's exemplary. Maybe she's just making better choices.
DS was a funny child, quick witted and still is. He's great company when he's on good form. He genuinely enjoyed spending time with me and his dad as a collective and individually. He was full of fun. His younger years make no sense to how he has turned out.
DS was 11 when primary school contacted social services in Primary 7, he turned 12 in the December, started academy in the August and things escalated from there.

I am not sure why everyone on MN wants a diagnosis of ND to the best of our knowledge there is nothing and this was flagged during many meetings with the relevant people at school, social work etc

We have been asking the same question for years - why is he like this and not a solitary person can provide an answer so unless DS starts talking and opening up, we will never ever know.

DS has had support all the way and when I asked him last night what happened to make him turn to selling drugs and why he chose this life and what did we do he said we have done nothing. His words were "once you start selling you can't get out of it"
He told me he's "fucked it"

He tells me he is not an addict, I have told him when he is ready to get help and support to phone me or his dad at any time and we will do our best to get him any help and support he needs. But until he is ready, we can't force him.

We've tried to appeal to his better nature and not be critical but not undermine the seriousness of the situation either.

well he is quite wrong, my 17yo dealt for a year and doesn't anymore. Maybe he isn't as clever as he thinks he is? Most of them aren't.

"once you start selling you can't get out of it"

There you have the truth. You don’t need to seek more answers as to why. He is being controlled closely by very unsavoury characters and is most probably threatened with violence. Not just him. This has probably been going on for years. He was probably groomed when he was much younger.
He probably did something …was forced to do something, about which he is deeply ashamed and that keeps their hold over him.

This. OP he can't get out. I don't know if police can help but he's not able to get out of this life he's living on his own.

Why are people still going on about how OP should have given up work to spend more time at home? Since when was that an option for most people?

Yes, absolutely.

I think this young man has a severe personality disorder, made worse by addiction.

OP please don't blame yourself or your DH. You did your best.

OP you still don't answer where things changed.... did he meet new people? When did he start stealing? How did all this change? Was it overnight or gradual?

I dislike you stating "there is no hope". That's an appalling stance. Of course there is hope for him. You need to open your eyes... we have prisons bursting at the seams with people who have done worse than your boy. And some of them are able to reform if they are well supported. The courts see 1000s of cases worse than him every day and most of those will be bailed, go free or with minor punishment. There is plenty of hope for a young person with a good brain and family support.

It's interesting that police searched the house for drugs and paraphernalia. Police were here yesterday, my son's room stank of weed and no-one said boo. They take a very softly softly approach. They did have a chat with him about addiction support and promised to make referrals to several services.

Maybe he is neurodiverse, maybe he isn't. It can be helpful to know because you can tailor your management. For example, my son is nd and I am very well-practised in considering how I convey information to him. Police have a note on his file and always mention it to me, they always check if there's anything they can do or say to ease communication with him. So it can be helpful.

Generally, teenage boys who are nd are much more at risk of being excluded from school and getting into trouble. Schools are designed for nt students and can be very lonely and boring as hell for the atypical.

However, posters upthread throwing around terms like psychopath are laughable. A young person dabbling in drugs and who has started stealing is not the definition of a psychopath.

You need to consider the fact that the teenage brain simply cannot process in the same way as an adult. With drugs in the mix, it can be a heady cocktail.

I heard a leading judge talk about boys and he recalled that as a 15yo he and his friends threw rocks off an overpass. It was a miracle they didn't cause any serious harm. This was a highly intelligent boy from an exemplary family who, once through his teenage blips, went on to carve out a stellar career. And who, most admirably, has not forgotten what it was like to be a painful teen.

I can't begin to imagine what you are going through. I hope things improve soon. Stay strong for each other. X

@HAPPILYMARRIEDSINCE2012 - sorry I am trying my best

We believe the drugs first came around through a paper round and snapchat.

He was always going on about wanting money so we thought a paper round would be good for him. He'd earn a little and it would offer some independence. DH or me would do the paper round with him. He had our street and some odd houses in PIL village.

A teenager from the village would frequently answer the door to us and pay DS if his parents weren't home.

DH and me were always there.

In between times, DS had downloaded snapchat onto his phone. We'd get a notification so we'd tell him to get it deleted which he said he had. We'd check his phone and it wouldn't be there. Then we'd find out he was back on snapchat.
It was a vicious circle and we ended up taking his phone from him because he couldn't be trusted and bought him a not so technical phone but then he'd go to DM's house and she'd allow him use of her phone or ipad or he'd log in on friends phones at school. DM, on more than one occasion, has given DS her mobile phone and she has gone without. I cannot understand her logic but apparently he wanted the same as his friends. It did not matter that we said no. She'd give him and lie to us.
He'd hide the phone in his room so we were unaware anything untoward was happening. Believing she was onboard with us.

You might ask why we didn't search him room - why would we? We were trying to have boundaries but trust. Not an easy balance.

Anyway, the teenager would do a raffle on snapchat - choose a number and if you won then you'd get money. DS would often "win" except the conditions were he had to take drugs to some persons house or another.

We found drugs in our house and the whole sorry tale came out. We informed the police and the school, explained what we knew.

Within a short period of time, DS had been "spiked" ending up in hospital because he had named people.

Police, social services, school - all involved and DS told them what had happened.

The people who allegedly spiked him, said DS was the dealer and he had the drugs and had taken them willingly.

Case closed, no further action. Nothing.

We gave names, addresses, handed in his phone, DMs phone - they were not interested or couldn't find anything.

It's obvious this teen has groomed him, we are aware of that but DS is so good at lying, hiding, sneaking around. Never a straight answer from him so therefore we are on a wild goose chase with a fraction of the truth.

See if he told us the full truth, we would do what needed to be done

@BlueBerryBad - The point of my post is what more can we do, so if you have an answer then I am all for listening and I genuinely mean that. How can we possibly help someone who doesn't want help or who won't talk? What are our options - to kidnap him? Put DM, us, DD in danger from his unpredictable behaviour? DM has paid an excessive amount to his drug debt and there is no end in sight. He is full of drugs, continuing to deal and has caused huge damage to her property. So what is the answer?
If it was an easy as paying of the debt, the big dealers off his case and him going on a straight track then we would do it I am not referring to weed. The police entered DS room to asses the damage he had caused to the property, the majority being in his bedroom and the copious amount of bags with powder residue, mixing bowl full of white powder, the scales - it was hard for them to ignore. They have taken it all away and because DS has told me there is further drugs and cash in DMs house they are coming back to do a full search. This is no small operation or the odd joint. DS is in very very deep.
I'm glad the police offered your DS support and maybe they will offer my DS the same when they catch up with him
He is currently on the run, nobody knows where he is or if they do they are not telling us and he won't tell us where he is either although he is replying to our messages asking if he is safe.
He says he is safe. He must be somewhere as his phone still has charge in it so he must have got access to a charger.

Well you could start by reading the post I wrote for you.

Too late probably, as he's on the run, but could you move him out of the area and away from the people he associates with?

Well that’s a much more honest account OP.
You already knew he was in very deep and that it was all due to having been groomed …..not ND, not sexual abuse, not emotional neglect, not because he’s a psychopath. It was probably largely chance and wanting a bit of independence at a very young age. I remember walking the paper round with my boys too. Drug education must start much earlier it seems.
But it does seem that for now, it’s too late to pull him back to a situation, as if none of it had ever happened.

Remember always that he simply can’t tell you the truth. He knows he can’t be seen as a grass again. The consequences for him and his family would be unthinkable. He is probably trying to protect not just himself, but all of you. These characters can be very scary as there’s always somebody above them prepared to save their own skin and they will go to any lengths. The drug industry is based on fear. He’s in that chain somewhere.

But there is hope. Keep talking to him, -calmly. Let him know he has a loving home to come home to when he can see a way out. And that you will never give up on him.
He's a clever boy. He will find a way out eventually. Things change in time. Help the police all you can.
I'm sorry you are going through this absolute despair …any loving mum would feel the same.
I also wonder if moving area might be a good move, for your mum too.

All you can do is tell him that you will be here when he is ready to change. For your own safety and for your mothers safety I would create a lot of distance between yourself and your DS as drug gangs have been known to target families

The same mother who’s undermined her daughter every step of the way and is now reaping what she’s sowed?

This, this, this OP

It sounds like he has been groomed for years.

I don't know if there are charities that can help, but as and when he is ready to escape this, I hope there are are ways you can support him

I have been in contact with the police all day today, back and forward. I am being told snippets of information from his "friends" - except they aren't his friends. They are people who my mum has transferred cash to from her bank, whose names are on the radar and they are worried.

He wants his clothes, which he didn't lift from DMs whilst running away last night. Once the police have searched her house, they will take a bag of clothes to the station for him to collect because we don't want him near our home or DMs and we don't want her friends or associates near us. It's not safe for us to meet someone in a neutral place because who knows what might happen
Edited to say - police are also keen to get eyes on him and so are happy to take his clothes in the hope it brings him to the station.

Naturally he is furious, blocked us on all platforms but we did manage to reiterate the message that when he is ready, the phone line to DH and me is open. We have repeatedly told him this since our communications last night.

Police are being really good, they have made a referral to social work for DM however when I spoke with social work, they weren't very helpful and given DM is playing everything down - it's very hard
Police can't do anything about the money because she has willingly sent it to him,

And on the merry go round we go...

DM won't ever leave her home, that was her and my DFs home (DF passed) and she has lived there 40+ years - that's one thing she won't do :-(

God, how depressing to think that parents have to do their kids' paper rounds with them nowadays to prevent them being recruited as drug runners. It's independence but not as we know it.

OP, these people are very good: https://www.bespaceaware.co.uk/

Lots of families have parents that work FT. I
Unfair to imply that son may have felt they weren't there for him And what about single parents who need to work FT?