Female nurses have to get changed with a male. They are told to go to another room. The man keeps the female changing room to himself. Wtaf is going on?

[TealTraybake]

Female nurses ‘forced out of changing rooms’ after complaining about trans colleague

NHS whistleblowers dubbed ‘Darlington Five’ say they feel ‘humiliated and dehumanised’

Read in The Telegraph: https://apple.news/AC7RGaXTPTYe2J4CAixEvDw

670 Mumsnettters don't think female nurses should be forced to share a changing room compared to 35 who should.

How many of the 705 are male? How many males think the female nurses should suck it up?

Interesting numbers.

The cognitive dissonance line is one that gets dragged out on a regular basis on MN in an attempt to belittle anyone who does not hold GC views.

No, it's a simple rationale for why some people react as angrily and defensively as they do to women saying no to males in their spaces and not sharing their gender identity beliefs. No "belittling" intended. The poster is a psychologist so they understand how the term is used. Anyone can be subject to cognitive dissonance.

Ah but Piggles is hiding that discomfort by not answering questions. Or rather, suggesting he’ll answer questions but only in private messages. But then not answering the questions in private messages. Because it makes him feel uncomfortable. Why? Because (as we all know), he can’t answer them.

I would be happy to do so as well but I also want the space to be inclusive of women who aren't happy to be labelled that way.

And yet, Piggles would be completely happy changing with them, but under no circumstances would they want to change with cis men. Make it make sense!

The question is, why doesn't everyone hold 'GC views', given that GC means they don't agree with gender stereotypes.

Basically, Elle, you are saying you support gender stereotypes. That's your position. Yeah?

I think assuming that particular posters are men is a mistake. There are lots of female people enabling this agenda.

No I don’t want to go to unisex. I don’t want to change with people who identify as men. That would comprimise my dignity and safety,

Does that include women who identify as men?

And - that space needs to be called "Females Only" not something else.

I love how 'cognitive dissonance ' is thrown at everyone who recognises the science of biology and human reproduction.

Gosh.

(laughs in gender critical feminist)

But then you'd have the likes of India Willoughby popping in, wouldn't you? We can't win.

well he has a cock. and a Y chromosome. He's not Female.....

We could have a "females only and no twitter twats" sign? maybe that would keep him out

Such a massive waste of words - trans women are men - with mental health issues, they know it we know it, that is really all there is to it. No one really gives a shit as long as they keep out of our spaces - then we give a shit.

India Willoughby claims to be biologically female and have a cervix.

India Willoughby has also fathered children.

MOTHERED CHILDREN YOU BIGOT 😵

Oh, he's a biological female, don't you know? He's biological and his passport says female, so it's pretty clear cut. I don't think he has the cock anymore, not that it makes a difference, but for accuracy sake.

Females only and no twitter twats sounds good, but they rarely identify as twats, do they?

I think when a person, not just on Mumsnet but IRL or elsewhere on the internet knows they cannot rationally defend their position because it isn't coherent and doesn't really make sense, that's when we see the cognitive dissonance biting. That's when "allies" get very angry at women who make their own position clear and are fully willing to debate it, because they believe it. That's the difference. I think most allies don't want to have to debate because it makes no sense. They know this.

I have no issue with being labelled a terf.

What I'd have a problem with was the harassment and abuse for that.

In practice would I use the 'terf changing rooms'? Possibly. Until I was harassed about it. At which point I'd probably stop using changing rooms at all.

But then I have a number of anxiety related issues and a history of self exclusion because of those issues.

What do those issues relate to? Generally men and abusive females abusing their position of power and insisting that I must 'comply' in some way...

Some might categorise me as vulnerable. Others just want to shut on me so they get a power trip.

Allies don't want to debate it, because they don't want to do anything different. Including sensible and rational compromise. They see through the lens of ' my way or the highway' and enforcement in the same way.

It is the very height of entitlement.

@PiggleToes "No I don’t want to go to unisex. I don’t want to change with people who identify as men. That would comprimise my dignity and safety,

you said there could be a third space for trans women. All I’m asking for is that women like me can be added to it- strictly on the basis of consent- and we can call it a “trans inclusive womens space”. Why is that unacceptable to you?"

I can't decide if you're punking us, wilfully obtuse or a bit dim.

You as a woman have decided that you do not wish to be naked in the presence of Cis-men that you don't know and do not want to see them naked either.

Ok, I agree that's a valid opinion and one that I share. I do not want to share those spaces with men either, or toilets, prisons, hospital wards, prisons, rape crisis centres and so on.

Where I struggle with is how you are differentiating between cis-men and trans identified men? What is the tangible difference between those 2 groups of men, at what point does a cis man become a Trans identified man, what is the threshold and how do you identify that they have met it?

From my perspective, call the third space whatever you like and as long as it has no kind of man in it, skirt wearing or otherwise, then it's the one I will choose for me and my daughter to use.

So is their legal case still in the pipeline?

Why are you so obsessed with letters in a passport. You are such a passport snob.

Do you judge others by the colour of their passport too? You bigot! Blue ones good, red ones bad.

India Willoughby was pregnant and gave birth.

True factoid.

They see through the lens of ' my way or the highway' and enforcement in the same way.

They do. But most of those people actually can't debate it in any way that's fair or makes sense. They know this. It's always illuminating to see what happens when they have to. They get very angry. We sometimes see it from politicians in media interviews when they have to defend some nonsense statement they've made about "men" being pregnant or whatever.