Female nurses have to get changed with a male. They are told to go to another room. The man keeps the female changing room to himself. Wtaf is going on?

[TealTraybake]

Female nurses ‘forced out of changing rooms’ after complaining about trans colleague

NHS whistleblowers dubbed ‘Darlington Five’ say they feel ‘humiliated and dehumanised’

Read in The Telegraph: https://apple.news/AC7RGaXTPTYe2J4CAixEvDw

YANBU at all, and I suspect the vote on this thread pretty much represents how the general population views the situation.

What is the vote? I can't see voting in the MN app.

Hmm, I’m a psychologist so yes I do.

Please explain why you attack someone in a debate, rather than reflect and respond to what they’ve said, in a sensible manner?

95 percent of people say YANBUY which, I assume means they don't agree with what these nurses are being subjected to?

As long as one of those 3 spaces completely barrs anyone with a penis no matter how they identify that’s fine with me. I’m so glad you agree there needs to be a female only space that trans people aren’t allowed in. Which is all women want. The space however must be adequate, so big enough, private enough

@PiggleToes has spent the last 4 or 5 hours making derogatory remarks about women who don't want to get naked in front of male colleagues for reasons of safety and dignity, and yet when people suggest that the third space for trans people would be a unisex space she says, "Oh no! I don't want male people in there! That would be a threat to my safety and dignity!"

Ridiculous.

Especially since she would have the option to use the "TERF" space instead.

5% YABU to 95% YANBU

Yes Elle, we all know what cognitive dissonance means. It means the holding of two contradictory beliefs simultaneously.

Here's a guide:

Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs, values, or attitudes. People tend to seek consistency in their attitudeses and perceptionsns, so this conflict causes unpleasant feelings of unease or discomfort.1

www.verywellmind.com/what-is-cognitive-dissonance-2795012#:~:text=Here%20are%20just%20a%20few,but%20you%20do%20it%20anyway.

5% YABU to 95% YANBU

Highly unsurprising and as you say, it reflects what most people think about women's spaces.

And that space needs to not be a repurposed cupboard or office which doesn't lock properly or have adequate changing facilities, while the trans woman gets to strut around in the women's showers and perform cartwheels in the now gloriously empty space whilst moaning about being othered.

It's a good point that how would you know if you were in the room with a cis or trans male anyway? After all, transwomen don't owe us femininity, right? Most of them also keep their male genitalia, so actually, policing the Women and transwomen space could prove quite difficult. Not even a genital inspection would solve the problem!

I note that you have no space for transmen in this great plan. Just a space for mean women and a space for nice inclusive women and transwomen. Where do the transmen go? In your ideology they're men so do they go in the men's, or what? What happens if the men in there aren't gender believers and don't want them there, where do they go?

It's really illuminating, I find, when people who want to argue against women only spaces never even consider the needs of women who ID as trans, only ever the needs of men who ID as trans. Almost as if they only really think the men matter.

In fairness, I haven't seen much evidence that the holding of these contradictory beliefs is causing @PiggleToes any discomfort.

Part of the stupidity of this situation is that the men claiming they have must be allowed to access women's spaces are doing so purely on the basis of semantic sophistry. The reason why we have separate men's and women's spaces is, basically, to keep penises out of the latter. It's just that when we were organising this, mostly in the late Victorian era (once women were allowed out of the house), we didn't want to put "With penis" and "Without penis" on the doors, so it became "Men" and "Women" (or perhaps "Gentlemen" and "Ladies"). But "penises" is why they're there.

Little Britain's Emily Howard character hit the nail on the head here, "You must allow me to do X, I am a lady. I do ladylike things". As if a women's toilet or changing room or prison is there mainly so that the ladies can discuss knitting patterns and flower arranging in peace, without all those vulgar men who just want to talk about football and cars.

So maybe a compromise would be to make "it's about penises" explicit, possibly with some arrangement for the (rare, as a PP mentioned) situation of a trans person who has actually had the full monty operation.

So we seem to have circled back to the socially acceptable and safe: Men, Women and mixed sex for Piggle and Piggle's friends. Although I would hope that (given the prevalence of VAWG and the grim MoJ data about trans sex offenders) that girls will be safely in the women's changing rooms and not subject to flashing and voyeurism in the mixed sex facilities.

Haven't yet read past this, as it made me smile and want to post again before reading on.

So the solution is, apparently... a female-only space! With an additional space for women who don't mind mixed-sex, be they transwomen, or Piggles and other "allies".

This is the same thing we're suggesting!!!

The only difference is in the framing or perspective. But boy, what a difference that does, indeed, reveal.

Most posters appear to believe our current 100-year-old, 99% reliable, system of separate female spaces upheld by social contract is worth preserving - with an additional third space added for the minority group of transwomen and the small proportion of women* happy to share with them.

Piggles, I think, is suggesting that our current 100-year-old, 99% reliable, system of separate female spaces upheld by social contract should be reframed as mixed-sex to accommodate the minority group of transwomen - with an additional third space added for the majority of the UK's female population*.

(*My understanding is that surveys - those that are unusually clear about their definitions, at least - have shown this to be the case; apologies I don't have links, I'm sure someone else will).

You are correct.

95% of 696 votes so far say I am not being unreasonable..

So as not to come to blows here, I imagine it depends partly on what your job is.
Paperwork and blood tests in the donor centre/PICU/talking to diabetics about how to manage their blood sugars/operating theatre, for example, are all likely to have different requirements AS WELL AS the different trusts.

704 votes now

The cognitive dissonance line is one that gets dragged out on a regular basis on MN in an attempt to belittle anyone who does not hold GC views.

What's the difference between being a 'transally' and being gender critical?

The willingness to question if it's someone male being a creep or just suck up inappropriate behaviour without comment because otherwise you might be labelled a bad ally.

Nothing else.

The cognitive dissonance is merely about the degree to which you allow yourself to have mug tattooed on your forehead whilst a male gets off on it.

I think Piggle Toes thinks she's cleverly herding us into a corner where we throw up our hands in horror at the thought of using the clearly labelled female only space, because it would be degrading or something.

I confirm I'm quite happy to use toilets and changing rooms labelled AWFUL PHOBIC BIGOTED TERFS ONLY in big flashing red letters, if it means it's bloke-free.

Can you think why the women on this thread might have this attitude @PiggleToes. Are they a)transphobic or b) royally pissed off because the needs of some males have been prioritised over the safety and dignity of all women

Surely if there is a trans changing space everyone is happy, the transwomen are in with people with vaginas (the transmen) and the transmen are in with people with penises (the transwomen). Everyone in the room believes in trans as a concept so everyone is happy and can now focus on their work rather than what is in their pants.

And given there are apparently several million users on Mumsnet, that is very reflective of the actual wider community.

As much as piggles hates being the ultra extreme fringe minority.

@lifeturnsonadime @CrochetForLife There was a thread about crime stats which I have not had a chance to find yet but based on census data and home office figures, the the UK 1 in 2500-3000 men are convicted sex offenders, whilst for the trans community it is 1 in 585. i.e. they are 6 times more likely to have been convicted of a sex offence compared to the male population as a whole.