WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

You need to buy a device that moves your mouse minutely every few seconds so you never go into amber. I think I got mine from Amazon. Works a treat.

I think it depends on whether you have flexi time or set hours.

Set hours - YABU - you should be there to work those hours

Flexi time - YANBU - as long as your are working the hours, alls good.

I also think flexibility it comes after you have build trust, sounds to me like you boss thinks your taking the piss so I’d just work my hours during the office day and not catch up on a night whilst popping to the shop in the day.

That’s terrible! What an awful boss - talk about micro managing - he/she needs to back off- I think you should look for another WFH job!

@Nutellla This is why your boss is checking up on you. Piss takers and lazy bastards have ruined it for everyone.

Depends on the job (in something like call centre work you do actually need to be available to take the calls!) and the ethos of the company.

Pre covid I worked in a very old fashioned office - strictly 9-5, one hour lunch, ten minute coffee break. That sort of thing. There was no WFH then but they would've been unimpressed by the things you list I imagine.

Now my work is fully flexible and no one cares where or when I do it as long as it's done. I went to the hairdresser at 11am last Wednesday and no one knows or cares.

Your employer isn't BU to expect you to be working when you're supposed to be working. IMO, if you're going to run your company like that then you can't expect anyone to work a minute after clocking off time though.

Personally, I'd be job hunting for a more reasonable, flexible employer. You're not talking about WFH ft with a toddler, everything you describe is perfectly reasonable.

Online presenteeism is just as bad as in person.

I wouldn't work anywhere with that kind of toxic culture.

I'd be looking for another job.

This does not sound like a great work culture. If they expect you to be flexible, but then do not afford you the same flexibility. Also, you can be working but not attached to your computer? I often take 'gasp' work calls on my work phone rather than my laptop. Or I plot something out old school with pen and paper to get my ideas straight. I would raise this and say that given the expected flexibility for travel etc. you expected reasonable flexibility in return to be able to nip to the loo, or the shops for some chocolate etc.

I would honestly be looking for another job.

It does sound like they check up a lot but I am surprised you’re doing these things and think it’s ok to chat to plumber, neighbour and pop to the shop for chocolate. I wouldn’t dare do that or admit it when I wfh.

my emp wouldn’t notice if I was away but I wouldn’t be popping to the shop unless it was my lunch hour or other designated break.

A 5 min break is ok but 15/20 mins does seem a lot.

I ask my team to tell me if they’re away from their desk. Not because I’m checking up on them per se but because of something urgent does come up I need to know who I can send it to and if ABC is on the school run they I’ll ask XYZ instead.

Have you told him what you were doing each time? If so, have you then raised your flexibility and that you expect some to be given back?

Alternatively, create a meeting with just you and then join the call. You'll be red not amber... apparently.

How to make Teams stay green in 2024?

Teams will change your status if your computer goes idle or into sleep mode, switching you to 'Away. ' To avoid this, go into your system settings and adjust the sleep mode to “Never” or extend the idle time. You can also use apps that simulate mouse movements to keep your computer active.18 Aug 2024

Weird. I literally just posted this on another thread.

I mean I would answer the door/stick a wash in but I wouldn't dare wander off to the shops for chocolate when I could do that on my lunch in case something came up.

Unless that kind of flexibility is pre-agreed then you are taking the piss in work time.

urgh no. This is all one way: they expect you to travel and work unsociable hours but don’t afford you the courtesy of nipping out to the shop or answering the door. If you were in an office you’d waste far more time chatting, lunching, and going to the tea point I bet.

exception being if you have time-critical short deadlined work that no-one else can do in your absence.

I do think it’s fair to say when you’re going to be away but the obsession with looking at your teams status… silly.

Teams presenteeism markers can be set to not go yellow until x minutes of apparent inactivity, btw ;) I think I have 20 or 30 minutes which I set because sometimes when I am in the office I am around and contactable, just not hovering over my keyboard because I need to eg access some stock or go somewhere else in our building.

Has your performance / productivity dropped?

You can pin your contacts on Teams which prompts "availability" ie green status, so if it keeps pinging available that means you are having too much idle time away from your laptop which is informing your manager (ie switching from yellow to green time and time again), and maybe they are picking up on this.

Thing is, that marker or metric would be completely inaccurate for my job. And lots of others. What about reading stuff offline? Dealing with clients on non-teams telephony? Meeting colleagues or clients in person? Going to the loo because you have some digestive or reproductive issue?

any employer who is so focused on yellow time is probably a bit shit. Measure the outputs, not the inputs.

Couldn’t be bothered. My old boss once told me I should “put them kettle on in my own time.” She’s my old boss for a reason!

I school run, nip to the shop etc during work time - but also respond to emails way after my working hours and put in unpaid overtime where needed etc.

That flexibility likely does have to be earned, maybe they don’t think you’ve been there long enough yet, but I couldn’t be that monitored anymore.

Completely agree.

My performance is fine in fact my 3 month review was really good. Without sounding arrogant, my role is quite specialised and I know difficult to recruit for. I don't want to be seen as doing a bad job because I'm used to a way of working in previous jobs which is different to my current role. However I am finding it suffocating, the role means that I work very independently and can go days without speaking to others in the company.

I’ve seen lots of videos on social media explaining how to look like you’re online on Teams. Definitely worth a search and testing the proposed solutions.

I read a lot of scientific papers in my job. They're online, but I'm often not moving my sodding mouse about the whole time.
Thankfully I work in a team where everyone does what is expected of them.

If your contracted hours are mainly 9-5 then it seems you are taking the piss. If I'm leaving my desk to for longer than 10 mins to change location, do school run, sort a plumber etc then I would clock out and do it in my own time (we have a flexible clock in/clock out system). I would also drop my boss a message to let them know. I expect the same from my team and they expect the same from their teams. Have you made it clear to your boss you take these breaks and but always make the time up?

Presumably that also means they can't expect any early mornings or overnight stays from the OP either? Strictly 9-5 only.

The reason I'm asking the question is because I had worked in a culture where as long as I got my job done, I could manage my time. When i say 'pop to the shop', I do just been the corner shop at the end of my street, not a full supermarket shop. I am looking for a new job but the interview process involves to much work and I don't want to get it wrong again. I am genuinely trying to gage whether my expectations are unreasonable and the next job i get will be the same.

Most contracts will state general working hours plus any travel requirements. I travel for my role and that is expected, however on a normal working day I wouldn't spend my time travelling about, having long conversations, going to the shop etc in works time. I have the flexibility to do this if needed but I would clock off and also let my team and boss know I won't be around for x amount of time in case something urgent comes up - that's just been professional and courteous. The flexi policy I work too states you only have to log in for 5 hours a day then you can log off and use the time you have in credit or make the time back but I would never just log off at 2 without letting my boss and team know even though the policy says I can. Also I add the school runs I do to my work outlook calendar so people don't book meetings in with during that time