WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

I can ensure you I don't take the piss..yes I have the flexibility to pop out to a docs appointment or allow a trades person to come in my house. but on the other end I have just logged off work there now. I was online since 7am.this morning. I am taking next week off but no one really covers my job when am off so am making sure my work is covered and have a list of what is needed to be done next week when off by other departments. that's the trade off. I am trusted to do my work when required and this has been proven with bonuses and pay rises the past few years.

Oh, and the idea that I would be lurking around Teams to see when my team to offline is baffling. They might be in a meeting, travelling, on a landline, researching, designing something, having a poo, at the dentist or putting away shopping... why should I care if I didn't have a meeting booked? If they do their job fab, if not I'm all over the improvements they need to make. 15 minutes to buy chocolate won't affect performance to any meaningful level.

Hmm you mean the "old school bosses" who used to take boozy hours long lunches, constant work jollies, leave early for pub nights, spend hours by the water cooler etc? All for comparatively more money than we earn now with better pensions? Yeah they were really run ragged...

I remember in one job being told that it was best not to ask certain managers any questions after lunch as they spent every lunchtime in the pub.

And we need to move away from this idea that just because someone is physically sat in an office they are actually working-I know plenty of people who do fuck all in their office jobs but they are there every day taking up space.

"Wouldn't it be nice to say our bosses in the NHS, schools, police etc oh just going to sit in a cafe and work lol 😆 I do believe office workers don't have a clue about other jobs, sitting at a desk all day, then wfh with all its privileges, to complain so much about someone checking on them? In reality we are all present so can be seen but still get checked on and micro management being observed and graded while doing our jobs. Someone standing over you with a tick box form while dealing with difficult clients/patients/students during the reality of unpredictable behaviour.

Strewth..."

@Beautifulweeds I love it when someone on threads such as these invariably mentions the trifecta of "honourable" jobs: teachers, police and the NHS, and we are all supposed to stop and hang our heads in shame for not being as supposedly busy or stressed as people in those roles. I don't recall anyone being forced to be a teacher, nurse or police officer. Different jobs have different cultures and different expectations. And we are all aware of them when we make decisions about which careers to go into.

The OP is clearly not in a career where presenteeism and micromanagement are expected, hence her creating this thread. And posters banging on about how they can't do x y z in their roles is irrelevant, in the same way that it would be irrelevant for me to give a poster tips on how to cook steak if they have asked about the best way to cook chicken.

We have flexible working. Start between 7:30 and 10am, finish 4pm - 7pm. Must work 10am - 4pm. Can take up to 2 hours lunch break as long as pre-agreed with manager otherwise up to 1 hour. Min 6 hours a day, max 10 hours. Must hit contracted hours.

In itself that is pretty flexible, but managers also have discretion to allow eg popping out for the school run, letting workmen in to fix your boiler etc.

We're not a 9-5 industry. Our roles involve travel and you can be working 12 hour days overseas, no TOIL or paid overtime. So we do allow a bit of slack as long as the job gets done. Yes, there's been the occasional person taking the mick but that gets noticed pretty quickly. And people tend to stay for years because the culture is one of respect for each other.

Run as fast as you can - red flag 🚩 bad management.
Institute of leadership and management-give staff the time, space, opportunity and tools to do the job they shall be happier and more committed to your company equals better performance less costs on re- recruiting because your HR policy is a recruitment and retention one!
Some Managers seriously need to get a diploma or degree already in ILM. Embarrassing the rest of us! All staff are suffering you too, micromanaging is stiffling your colleagues and both their and your perfomance. Also how many management hours lost to check in call- not a cost effective use of management time whereby they could be driving sales or promoting the PR or marketing of the company.
Im starting to think we need unions back in business to educate leaders and managers on these extensive studies about workplace that has been around since the 1980’s and prior like when they were talking about climate change. It’s seems we are still walking around in the dark with poor management or harrassing/ controlling approaches to management.
Get a new job if they do it to everyone they clearly don’t see the problem with their scrooge boss attitudes and crazy behaviour. Next they shall be giving you a tag on yor leg with a box under your desk so you don’t move and a cctv camera to record your work whilst tapping your personal mobile and using Bluetooth to check your location. Bordering Orwellian soon if they carry on this way of monitoring everyone and everything to death! Madness and misery!
I’ve not had a member of staff leave yet in five years of management do you know why I listen and respond, I coach and promote and that's what managers and leaders do. They won’t the best for the workers and business alike. I set the targets I show them how I do it, I let them do it their way - autonomy. The deliver they met targets they are happy. As a manager you are responsible for the work and wellbeing of you employees. For you to be successful you have to balance work with wellbeing for retention.

Sorry what? Why does it matter if she works out if a cafe occasionally. And why would that make her job suddenly not "real"?!!

Think you had it good at your previous jobs. Open a Microsoft word page, and place something heavy on your space bar, that should stop the phone calls.

I wfh and have been in the same job since 2019. We used to have a fantastic boss. He was happy for us to nip and do quick jobs as the whole team worked hard and didn’t take the p*ss. We all used to work overtime for him and would literally do anything for him if he asked us too. He then got a new position and another boss came in. He micro manages us to an extent that half the team have now left, the other half will not work any overtime. Non of us will give him the flexibility that we used to give the previous boss. He will randomly give us calls around 8:45 (mainly the employees that have children) and again at 3pm and it is always some dumb question that I know he knows the answers too.

I always used to walk my dog at 10am after our team meeting. It was a quick round the block walk would last 15-20 mins but then work through my dinner which was 30 minutes. So really they were getting 10 minutes each day out of me for free. I also take my 5 year old to school. School is at the end of my street and to take him there and back takes 7 minutes. I have to now log off and on again to show this in my timesheet BUT we are told to take a 10 minutes break away from screen every 60 minutes. But we are not allowed to use this time to take child/ren to school.
new boss has set so many micromanaging rules up it’s unreal but it has definitely effected the team we are in and everyone is leaving left/right & centre

Does any have any insight on how I go about asking about WFH culture in an interview? Or how I explain why I am leaving my role after 6 months?

I'd just tell them the truth, that whilst you broadly loved the role the culture of the organisation wasn't a good fit.

And re WFH in next job I'd just ask what their working culture is around WFH as an open Q. I'd follow it up with saying you're really happy to be flexible and give extra time over to your role, travel etc but you enjoy a working environment where you are afforded some flexibility also eg if something urgent crops up with your kids. And see how they respond.

The odd 5 mins is ok but 15/20 mins here and there to go to shops or deal with plumber, chat to neighbour etc is a bit much. Anyone office based would have to take leave to deal with a plumber etc. Your boss might be a bit more understanding if perhaps you let him know in advance that you will be offline for 20 mins or so to deal with these things and will make up the time.

Not necessarily. When I was office-based, I could have taken 30 minutes to talk to a plumber or similar, as long as I didn't miss meetings and made up the time.

Not all workplaces are the same. Some treat you as competent adults who can balance different priorities and still get things done.

Set yourself to busy, the status doesn’t change.
Or…in the example of the plumber coming, just put yourself in a Teams call with nobody. Obviously I’ve never done that myself and good for run………..

For me, YABU. You’re still new to this job and you’ve had at least 4 incidents where you’re not working when expected. Why couldn’t you just wait til lunch to go to the shop?

It basically comes down to if you could do it in the office without having to run it by someone, then great. If you’d have needed to inform/get permission, then reasonably you can’t expect just to be able to do it from home.

The thing is, her employer also wants her to be available outside of her contracted hours as well.

Either OP is a 9-5 employee who has set hours, set breaks and can't flex her time to deal with the plumber or pop the the shop, or they allow her to flex her hours in the day to make up for the extra time she worked in the evenings to benefit them.

Too many employers want flexibility when it suits them but aren't willing to give back.

When I worked in a shop I was able to flex my time to deal with things like plumbers, vet visits etc. I never once had to take any kind of unpaid (or paid) leave for it.

I just did shorter hours one day and flexed to do longer another to make up for it.

I'm surprised there are so many jobs where you can't do that.

In my job 10 minutes to make a cup of tea would be fine, not any more on a regular basis. Plumber would be ok if I told my boss in advance and made up the time. School runs definitely not on a regular basis as we're not meant to look after primary age or younger children while working ( I have a very nice boss who turns a blind eye if my 8 year old is sick). We're also not allowed to work from a cafe for confidentiality reasons, but that may not be an issue in your job.
I only have to travel once every few months though ( assuming you mean travel not go to your normal office, as commuting is rarely counted towards work time).

But if OP doesn’t want the extra hours, then push back on that. I expect 9-5 or something similar is actually in the contract.

Why not? We all do this at the office so why not at home. If I bump into a colleague in the kitchen, I'll chat for 15 mins. If I fancy a coffee or a snack I pop to the shop. Since when are we not allowed to move from our desks, take breaks and talk to people?
This is extreme micro-management and I would look for another job. This won't change.

But if OP doesn’t want the extra hours, then push back on that. I expect 9-5 or something similar is actually in the contract.

Except if you read the OP, her contract requires flexibility and large amount of overnight stays and early starts that she's not financially compensated for.

If they want her to give up her free time for their benefit, then they need to be prepared to allow her to flex her time in return. They don't get to have it all one way.

A few years ago (before covid) I worked in a job where home-working was not encouraged (and eventually I left because there was no need for me to incur commuting costs when clients didn't give a fig where I was).

But some of my colleagues used to organise events, and they'd be at venues from 7am, 8am etc to set up.

My boss decided to send an email around telling people off for being 10 minutes late to the office (eg if a train was delayed) and saying they should make up the time at lunchtime or after hours. I was actually on leave when he sent the email, so it wasn't aimed at me, but I was really angry for my colleagues who put in loads of extra hours.

I really don't know what's wrong with some bosses.

Is working from home the same as flexible working?

if you are contracted to work between a certain time eg (9-5) then you should be working those hours.

if you are contracted to work flexi hours then nipping out to do bits is fine as long as you work your hours.

does your boss work from home too? It’s easy to call him a micromanager based on examples but really it’s just as hard to manage someone like you who is mixing up working from home with flexible working.

That person is probably on this thread going by some of the comments 😂

I have been in the office the last couple of days and yesterday a friend who happens to work in the office across the road from mine text me to ask if I was in or wfh. I said yes I was at the office and she asked if I wanted to meet for a coffee. I checked my calendar, had nothing booked in for the next hour so I said I will meet you in 5 minutes

Not only did I not have to check it was ok with my boss, I didn’t hide it either. In fact when I did speak to him later I told him that I had met her for a coffee and she said to say hello as he knows her from a previous role

No drama or telling off and everything still happened yesterday that should have.

The coffee shop next door would go out of business if office workers were not allowed to pop out during the day. Not sure it would make much sense for them to only be open before 9 and during lunch

Yes, I am in a senior position and from the day I started 6 months ago my movements have been monitored. My lunch breaks (if I take them) are timed and my boss has advised the entire senior team that he needs to know where we are at all times. All of us are required to give the business a huge about of flexibility, for example, tomorrow I will be leaving at 4am to get to the site I am working at. I will leave the site at 5.30pm on Wednesday and won't get home until 10pm. Next week, it will be the same but back Tuesday night and then leaving at 4 am Thursday for another site, returning approx 9pm that same night. At the beginning of October, I will be at one site on Tuesday and Wednesday - leaving home as per normal at 4am and returning 9-10pm following day, however the Friday of that same week I need to travel to a conference which takes place over the weekend (I will be working there) and I will return the following Thursday. So that week I will work 12 days without a break and I suspect I will need to ask for the 2 days back that I work the weekend.

Obviously this is the culture of the company I have joined and also the director that I work for. The reason I asked this question was to understand if people in similar roles to thought that the monitoring and lack of flexibility was normal. I will looking for a new job which is so much work, and I need to make sure that I wasn't doing all of this work to find myself in a similar position again.

I grateful for all the replies, clearly there are jobs out there which operate in a similar way to my previous roles. Unfortunately it means going through the recruitment process to find one.

Sorry but they don't get to expect that amount flexibility and workload from you while demanding to know where you are all day, every day!

I'd be discussing it as a concern AND looking for another job. I work away every few weeks and I've inly been asked where I was once due to background noise and when I said just doing a little food shop and I was told to call them back after so they weren't in the way!