WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable but they may not be a good fit for this role/company. I used to work in a role like yours and we had a degree of flexibility and then the presenteeism started creeping in. We were micromanaged over the smallest things. For example, a lot of the role involved desk research. I get a lot of headaches and one way I manage this is to have time away from the screen when I feel one coming on. I mainly do this by switching to another task such as reading printed materials. This is done within full view of the laptop so that if I’m needed I can jump back on but of course Teams goes yellow through inactivity. I’m still working but boss would want to know where I was. Refused to believe I wasn’t working if the mouse wasn’t moving, despite the company guidance to take regular screen breaks. This happened to all of us and morale went though the floor. Many of us left (including me) and those that stayed refused to be flexible on their time meaning that management had a hard time getting things done as they had relied on good will to cover extra shifts etc. Where I work now we have the type of flexibility you describe. It helps us all to balanace and ensures the work gets done. And the team are happy which means they are more engaged and more willing to go the extra mile when needed. And the work gets done, to a high standard and on time.

I would have an honest conversation with your line manager about this whilst acknowledging that you’re not likely to get the answer you want. Then start looking for new roles. If/when you leave this one you can mention the lack of flexibility in your resignation and maybe someone will take notice. Either way, you will be better off!

My partner works in a job like this and he is trusted to do the work as required. Some nights he has been there till 3am sorting something so no one bats an eye if he nips to the shop or post office etc. It is a professional role and he is treated accordingly. It would be pretty obvious in this role if he wasn't doing his job!

My role is more like yours in that we have a senior micro manager. My line manager is fine if I need to take ten minutes away etc, but the senior manager isn't so relaxed. They want to know where people are and what they are doing all the time. People on the team find it really annoying as evening and weekend work for no extra pay is expected. It has resulted in people being a lot less willing to go the extra mile when they are pulled up for being in the toilet for too long.

Sometimes it is down to who is managing you and people in the same company can have a vastly different experience. My company is all about flexible working and work life balance but this manager doesn't like it.

I hate it. Unless you have time sensitive or a role where you answer calls etc it should be down to people to get the work done as works for them. Breeds better morale and loyalty and trouble makers should be given measurable tasks and dealt with if needed

I think the point is that people in these kind of roles often don’t have “hours” per day. They are expected to do the work and that takes as long as it takes.

My previous junior role I worked strictly 9-5. As soon as the clock flicked to 5.00 on the computer we shut it down and walked out. Enforced by the boss. In 5 years I never left after that time except once when I was in the middle of a phone call with a client and stayed the 5 min to finish it. If we needed to work longer hours we got TOIL.

My current role I just get the job done. If I do it at midnight then no one cares as long as it’s done on time. I do work mostly office hours anyway, but if someone phones or emails me at 7/8pm and it’s urgent then I’m expected to deal with it at that time.

The IT department can tell if you have that specific hardware installed.

Loads of people in the USA just got fired for doing this

I am in the same job as you, and I would consider that an unacceptable level of micromanagement. I give my junior team members more autonomy over their own time than that, and I can’t remember a time when my manager has ever asked where I am, other than in a friendly, oh, are you in the office today, who’s there kind of way. I don’t blame you for looking for something else, I would in your position.

I would find that annoying, but if it's the company policy then don't take it personally. Could you open Teams on your phone if you're away from the laptop? That keeps the green tick on!

But in an office popping out to get a coffee would be fine - its so silly!

Well, just to point out, I'm currently green on teams while reading and replying to this thread! So that means nothing.

I'm a better worker for taking 10 minutes here and there to do a quick chore (or pop on MN!). There's a certain level of problem solving in my role and often stepping away for a few minutes allows me to come up with a solution.

I used to do the same in the office by making a coffee or speaking to a colleague (or popping on MN 😂). Nothing has changed. Except I do get more done now as I don't have the horrendous commute.

I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable but I don’t think this necessarily is just related to WFH. It sounds like your new company isn’t the right cultural fit for you. When we all worked in the office I wouldn’t have cared if one of my team popped to the shop to buy chocolate, or had a chat in the kitchen or ran the odd errand. I want my team focused on output and deliverables, not chained to their desk between the strict hours of 9-5. It also sounds like you are too senior for these petty rules. With seniority comes trust to get the job done, you shouldn’t need micro-managing.

And lots of places won't let you install unauthorised software or hardware in the first place. Far too easy a way to let in malware etc if you do.

I never get how people are doing school run, i mean what do you do with the kids when back? Or do your working hours finish at 3pm in which case why does it matter?

Wfh doesn't mean looking after your kids while you work. If they aren't old enough to walk themselves home you need to use asc/childminder if you don't finish work til 5

Maybe it's not safe for the kids to walk home?

Lots of rural schools are on main roads with no pavements, so while they're not far in terms of distance, they're also not very safe.

Lots of schools also don't like primary children walking home alone but those same children would be fine to sit in front of the TV for an hour while their parents finish up.

What do you not understand? They pop out at 3 to get the kids, then come home and get back to work while the kids amuse themselves until dinner time.

Fine in some jobs, not in others. Doable with some kids, not with others. Not hard to understand though.

Id say though, whether its reasonable depends on the culture of the organisation. Its not a given that permission to wfh means permission to work flexibly. In most large corporates I'd say its fine to put a load of washing in, make a coffee, answer the door,,but not fine to:

• go work in a cafe
• go to the gym/exercise class unless its lunch hour
• pick up children from school and have them home with you for two hours while you're working
• spend a load of time chatting to a friend or neighbour who pops over, unless its lunch hour.

*What do you not understand? They pop out at 3 to get the kids, then come home and get back to work while the kids amuse themselves until dinner time.

Fine in some jobs, not in others. Doable with some kids, not with others. Not hard to understand though. *

You can't work effectively with children at home. Every single company I've worked in has expressly banned having kids under 10 at home without childcare while working. Its people piss taking like this who ruin it for everyone. You are paid to work, not look after your kids. Pay for ASC its what it's there for!

The people I know who pick their children up from school and then WFH all work for large corporates - they're mostly lawyers (by coincidence). And they all work far more than 2 hours after 3pm.

Personally, I could do it but I don't - but that's from a parenting perspective, not a work one.

I know @PuddlesPityParty it makes no sense 😂

I wonder how many of the outraged posters go and get a cup of tea every hour, or have a smoke break, or stand and chat at peoples desks while going to get something?!

I really hope you are not senior level management. I would hate to work for you. I’m just starting out in first line management and have done a lot of management training recently. Your approach has gone out with the arc and is certainly not in line with current thinking on good management and leadership skills.

If your boss is checking up on you and putting in random 1:1s then they obviously think you are taking the piss and that's all that matters, not what other people think is 'reasonable'. FWIW yes I also think you're being unreasonable and would think that anyone in my team who has time to go to a cafe, chat to neighbours for 15 minutes and in particular work with kids at home doesn't have enough work to do and isn't contributing to their full potential. Sending a few occasional emails at night doesn't make for it, that is expected in most jobs like yours I would have thought.

How much of the pop to the shops type stuff could be done in your lunchbreak and are you taking a lunch break?

If your 25 mins chats are - in effect - your lunchbreak then this is fine. If it is on top of, then less good.

Also, I would not expect my team to be routinely working from cafes unless they are doing it on the road, between client sites.

Having said that, have you checked to see if this is happening to other colleagues across the org? Are you meeting all your deliverables with bells on?

If so, then this sort of working culture would make me walk. WfH is a privilege but micromanagement is a form of bullying.

I was going to say the same.

If your work is done on time to the requisite standard, it shouldn't matter if you need to leave your desk to go to the loo or talk to the plumber. We have lives (and medical needs!) outside work. People should get a hour's lunchbreak but if you are in an office job and don't have meetings or need to be on call, you should be able to take your break when it suits you, which might not be lunchtime as such.

Teams recently changed so it goes from green to amber in a couple of minutes. I've been sitting at my desk in the office, talking to my colleague next to me, and our statuses have gone amber! It is ridiculous.

Yes some people take the mick, but that's for a boss to manage.

You don't have to work for me don't worry

Again it depends on the organisation and type of job. To your points:

• go work in a cafe - as long as you are not revealing private information and/or having calls then for some jobs it will be fine. As long as you don’t take the piss out of the cafe owner and actually buy something from the cafe

• go to the gym/exercise class unless its lunch hour - I did PT sessions at 10am and classes at 3pm in the gym in our office building even before covid/wfh became the norm. But on those days I would be in the office at 7 or leave later. Going to the gym is/was encouraged by the company and obviously all 5000 people that worked in the office couldn’t go at lunch so going throughout the day is the norm

• pick up children from school and have them home with you for two hours while you're working - if they can be independent then it’s fine, if they need to be parented then not fine. I would agree that this is a more recent change in mindset and has taken a while for that trust to be built. Only thing that would annoy me is if a colleague expected me to work late to accommodate their childcare

• spend a load of time chatting to a friend or neighbour who pops over, unless its lunch hour. - again if I am on late or logged on early then having a chat with Mavis next door is not going to cause any issues or make me not meet my objectives

This thread has been eye opening to a lot of views that I thought had been left behind. I appreciate that some jobs are time boxed within that traditional 9-5 model and are not flexible, but some are and the problem that OP started this thread about wasn’t about the role she had but the outdated view her manager has

I am writing this on my commute in as work expect me to be at a meeting until 9pm tonight so the flexible nature of my job means I could do a bit at home this morning, but also have a lazy morning and come in later.

The adult nature of my relationship with my boss means I didn’t even tell him this is what I am doing as to him he would say I don’t care as long as you get done today what is needed

In offices people go to make a coffee, chat with colleagues, and pop to the shop for 15 minutes ALL THE TIME. Why should it be different at home?

I’m sure someone has posted this, but can you download teams on your phone and check in every few minutes if, for example, you do a chocolate run? That’s what I do.