WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

My job is flexible like this because it works both ways. I frequently have to do work in evenings or in my days off to get the work done, but that also means it’s ok if I take a bit of time during my “working day” in same way you do. So as your job clearly isn’t 9-5 then it’s perfectly reasonable for you to do this. But clearly your boss disagrees so find something else. But do also agree with a pp that sometimes you have to prove yourself initially before they will trust you and stop micromanaging.

I cant believe you're finding a 9-5 suffocating, when you should be at work for those hours unless otherwise agreed.

It's 8.30 - 5.30 (so a 40 hour week) plus I will catch up on a emails at night. In addition every other week I'm away and have to leave my house anywhere between 4am and 5 am to travel to the site, I think this is why I am so fed up about them monitoring me when I am at home.

For this kind of role it would usually be completely normal to have time flexibility in your role, to be able to nip out to do personal admin tasks and not to have to clock watch.

Every organisation I have worked in has treated project manager or similar roles (i.e. not call centre type roles) in the flexible way that you want.

Ignore the posters who think you should account for every minute if your time and work strict hours - we don't all work in those kind of roles, and for some reason some people on MN seem to get annoyed about other people having flexibility.

I have a similar job title to you and my boss couldn’t care less when I log on and off as long as I get the job done

So If I go to the gym at 2pm, meet a friend for a coffee in Costa over lunch or have Selling Sunset on in the background while I am creating a PowerPoint pack then I will

My question would be has your boss not got enough work that means that he has the time to stalk you? My boss has no time to sit and monitor when we all change from green to amber

Are they expecting you to catch up on emails at night or are you doing it because your making up the time you've spent not working during the day? Have you discussed with your boss that you do school runs etc but make the time up at night? If I'm leaving the house at 4 or 5am for work travel then I get to bank the travel time, so I would log off really early that day or save it for another day if I can't do it on the same day. It sounds like you to need to communicate your expectations of flexibility with your boss as they seem to be in the dark about your routine and working habits so they feel like they can't trust how you are managing your time

This !

Sounds like company are ok with wfh but manager isn’t.
Or company knows that wfh needs to be tolerated to get & retain good staff. But they don’t trust the process.

Get yourself a better job, you’re not paranoid, and things won’t improve.

If I'm having a busy day, then there may be a few emails that I need to respond to in the evening, it depends on the day. It's not a case of make time up but making sure my job in done.

There is no toil element to my job. I don't get to claim back any additional hours for travel or overtime. It's not that type of job or company.

Sounds like micromanaging... I would be uncomfortable with that level of monitoring but for the meantime... open the post-it note app and ensure curser is in it, and place your tv remote control (button side down so it won't slip off) on the space bar. It will keep the key running over the post it note, without sending your laptop or computer into chaos, and will ensure your status stays active at all times...
But ultimately if they can't trust you to do you job without you being active online every second of your working hours, then in my opinion it's bad management and also not an environment I'd want to be in.

You are not being unreasonable - that level of scrutiny over teams status is nuts. I work til the job is done; regularly finish later than 5 or don't have a full hour for lunch (or more time than it takes to make lunch before eating in front of my computer) and am granted TOIL only in the very rarest circumstances. On less busy days i might nip to the shop, have a wax, have a walk round the block and would probably let my team know before I did it. If I was being teams stalked like this I would be fuming.

It's probably partly being a new job and not knowing you, and also every workplace has its own culture and expectations. But yes, I do expect to be expected to manage my own time within the requirements of the job. I know when meetings are, what daily tasks there are, what longer deadlines are for projects. Also, I'm due to start an out of hours system update in a minute. If they want me sometimes working very unsociable hours, they can show some flexibility in the day, too.

I see no difference between going to the shop on the corner of my street and the onsite shop at the office; in fact, the one on my street is probably closer. No difference from my manager going out for a vape.

I too am in a new job. I've got a really inflexible micromanager. I can understand wanting to supervise new staff closely - someone can know the technical side of a job very well, but they'll still need help with knowing the expenses process, how to request applications - all the stuff that is internal and different in every company. But people also need their own space to learn and make mistakes and managers shoukd have their own work - if they've got time to check up on everyone constantly, they can't be doing all the work they're expected to do.

I'm dealing with it by having another job interview lined up next week.

Sounds like your new boss is related to my new boss. Devoted micromanager, thinks they know everything despite this being their first post in the sector, bangs on about 'never missing anything' but actually oblivious to most things they can't see or be told in detail by the devoted (and drastically under qualified) brown nosers in the wider team.

New boss also regularly buggers off whenever they feel like it without letting anyone know, spends most of their time in the office on the phone, loudly, to their kids while the rest of us do their work for them (stopping as of now). I used to happily go above and beyond but not any more. If they haven't left by the time I finish the post-grad course I'm on I won't be staying, I have no loyalty to the organisation at all any more. I'm already looking after having originally thought (pre arrival of new boss) I'd be here a few years at least.

I was just about to post this! I have a senior role (and it’s very flexible!), in my experience, poor managers look to micro manage and pick on ‘easy’ stuff to make it look like they are actually doing something - he can’t be busy if as soon as he sees your icon go to amber, he calls you? Also what if you’re on a work call or making notes etc etc that doesn’t involve being on the computer? You’re still working but would show as away - he sounds like a terrible manager

No. I don’t think you’re unreasonable. I do same as you and more and wfh but I also work late and on non working days etc. I do my hours just not always 9-5. Which is fine. I’ve told my boss I sometimes am late to log on if I need to do something first thing but if I am then I’ll make it up somewhere in the week. I wouldn’t count putting washing on etc. as downtime. I think the focus if you’re on teams call for hours is different too and you really need time away from pc at some points. I think that style of management is very junior and usually is driven by someone who is not particularly smart or mature in their role.

The word is working from home.

Would you think it ok to pop to the shop or do the school run if you worked out of an office?

This is why so many companies are demanding people come back to the office, because of people who seem to think they can fit work in around their home life, or take the piss by using automatic mice.

Would you think it ok to pop to the shop or do the school run if you worked out of an office?

Shop has always been acceptable, usually with, "does anyone want anything?" Obviously just a bar of cchocolate can of drink sort of thing, not a full supermarket weekly shop. Every office I've worked in since 1996 has had a shop on site.

@Nutellla actually shocked and disgusted to read that you go to work in a cafe when you are meant to be doing your real job!!!! that is taking the piss!!! no wonder many employers do not agree with wfh!!!

Boss must have NOTHING to do. Who has time for that????

Why does the location matter if the work is completed?

OP YANBU. Working in an office does not mean people are present and working 100% of the time - popping to put the kettle on, having a chat with Rachel whose desk is near yours, having a team catch up when someone is leaving etc etc. Look at adjusting your teams settings I think!

Wow! Not very progressive thinking (or likely envy)

We are allowed to work from anywhere in the world. 30 days max at a time, due to tax reasons.

This year alone I've worked from 3 different countries.

Productivity has proven to go up with flexible working.

You need to say to your boss, that if they want you to work 8:30 til 5:30, with zero time away from the laptop, no stepping away for any reason, then they need to understand that your 4am and late night work will have to stop. They can't have it both ways. The number of times you leave home early to do your job more than covers your time away from the laptop at home so if they don't remove this trigger thingy then you will just work those hours and that's that. This will also reduce the amount of hours on site as the 4am travel will have to stop.

I think working in cafe is wrong unless you can somehow guarantee that no client, personal or company internal information can be seen by others. It is eye opening when I’m on the train looking at material I shouldn’t see.
I can’t imagine how you make or take calls from a cafe.

Also a lot of wifi in cafes is poor quality so bring a secure dongle for your own connectivity.

But they expect her to do extra hours for no additional pay?

As long as you are doing the work you need to do within your hours and not claiming overtime or TOIL for the late evenings etc, and likewise you being absent isn’t meaning others have to pick up your work, I couldn’t care less tbh.

But I and other managers I work with have had a lot of bad experiences over the last four years of people taking the piss (not saying OP is) so lots of companies and managers are clamping down - and I can’t say I blame them. A few arseholes ruining it for others. Just because OP isn’t cruising doesn’t mean others aren’t (I mean literally look at the first post in this thread)