WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

My job is like your previous jobs, get the work done, be available for meetings and otherwise your time is your own. I know friends and family think I take the piss but my reviews are excellent at work and it’s just the culture of where I work 🤷‍♀️. I could never go back to a clock watching job.

Look this is really simple OP. You have an open conversation with your boss and explain exactly what you have told us here. Your approach is perfectly reasonable in most company cultures but if this employer has a presenteeism culture then it’s extremely clear you aren’t going to be happy there. So you say, “ok I understand and will try to comply but please be aware it means I’m not going to available for emails out of hours if there is no flexibility in the day time. Just letting you know i will take my hour for lunch every day at x o’clock and I will block my diary and I won’t be available for calls or emails in that hour, and I will be offline for emails and calls at until I start at 8.30 and from 4.30 sharp.” You might find that is exactly what your boss expects.

The travel… did the interviewer explain the travel requirement and did they understand you live 4 hours away? Is the company paying for you to stay away for the week (presumably you don’t have an 8 hour commute every day!)?

In every company I have ever worked, if company is paying for you to stay in a hotel and paying your meal costs, then you are “working away” and your travel time counts as work, this is either compensated by a) time off in lieu b) overtime pay c) allowed to travel during working hours.

Revisit your contract. If it says you are on a wfh contract so your ordinary place of work is your home, then your travel to work time is 0hours. However check if the contract specifies that “when required” you will work at one or various other locations and this will require “reasonable travel” - if so then four hours is NOT reasonable and they knew where you lived when they hired you so I would say, “without the flexibility and with working away all week , I’m going to get burned out so in my travelling weeks, I will leave home at 7.30 to arrive at work on Monday and I’ll finish on Friday at 1.30pm.” See how they respond.

I doubt your contract specifies a fixed location for the away working and specifies that NO travel time is allowed. It is therefore ambiguous and unreasonable to expect you to give up 8 hours a week to travel AND stay away from home every day (which is conventionally understood to be “sort of working”).

I would also look for another job just in case the current boss continues to be an uncomprending tosspot.

I have core hours so I’m expected to be online between 10-3:30 (minus lunch) but the rest of the time is mine to manage. If I need to be offline between them times I put it in my diary and let my manager know 🤷‍♀️ seems like you’ve done from a fairly relaxed place to one where there’s a bit more structure. Speak to your boss about it. If you’re fairly new I imagine they’d be some concern to make sure you’re not taking the piss either.

All of those things are fine in my role, if we are away from our desk for more than 15 minutes we just notify the teams chat and don't include that in our work time when filling in our Flexi time sheet as long as we do our hours somewhere between 7am and 7pm it's fine.

School run is fine as long as children are over 10 and don't need supervising at home, taking car for an MOT is fine, extended lunch for a hair cut or supermarket shop also fine - providing business needs come first and you attend all set meetings with stakeholders.

It sounds like your manager has different expectations around WFH than you do. Do they have other direct reports? Do you know them well enough to see if it is the same for them or if it is a you thing? On my WFH days I will put in a wash, hang it etc during the time I am making a cup of tea or need a break from a task. My manager is the same so we have that flex. However not every manager is so it is manager dependant

You know she means she's working on her laptop at a table, not that she's behind the counter being paid by Costa, right?

Just say you poo a lot, they won’t trouble you again.

Agree that the piss takers ruin a really good system for everyone. You are expected to be present. Your benefit is the lack of commute on those days, which is amazing, it makes such a life difference. Is all the work getting done within the day, that should be the Managers priority.

I'd look for another job. They are micromanaging idiots. I wfh fully, we have complete flexibility to work whatever hours so long as the work is done. We are spread over timezones which adds to that necessity though.

Your view of flexibility is normal for your role. Why is your manager so bored? I think you'll have to move, but if you wanted to stay then you'll need to discuss mutual flexibility expectations; it may be useful to discuss time tracking, so instead of I ogging 8 hours to bill x client- if you log 3 hours 15, then wander off to shops, log 2 hours, have late lunch and do washing, log another 1 hour, break for school run, then 2 hours... then you are accurately tracking to ensure you don't under-do hours.

My colleague and I moved to a flexible job from NHS and for the first 3 months we kept asking our boss to go to the toilet or to wfh on a quieter day where the car was in the garage to save a 3h bus commute. She sat us down after this time and asked her to please stop asking her everytime we needed a small break, as long as the classes were covered and we were well prepared to take them she really didn't care what we did in the in-between time. Felt very refreshing and took a long time to get used to when I was used to every single minute being accounted for.

Your not unreasonable that is your line manager, not very empowering hence why you are looking for a new job

I think WFH can be worse than being in the office as you're expected to be available every minute of the day on Teams but if you were physically in the office then you would be walking around, getting coffee, having conversations, going out to lunch etc

Perhaps you should make impromptu calls to your boss on your 4am work journeys.

It's hard for us to answer this OP - all companies are different and have different cultures and expectations. I work with a boss like your previous ones, who trusts me to do the job and doesn't check up on me, so I understand your feelings. I don't think your current situation is very unusual though.

It's piss taking like this that reduces trust for people who work conscientiously from home.

Or maybe it's micro managing like OP describes that makes people manipulate their Teams status.

It's piss taking like this that reduces trust for people who work conscientiously from home.

You can work conscientiously from home without being glue to your desk the entire time 🙄

A previous workplace of mine used time tracking software which tracked mouse movements and keyboard strokes, as well as taking random screen shots of the user's screen. Employees would receive similar phone calls if performance on the above was considered lacking in any way.
It was an awful, toxic workplace and I did not stay there very long.

I’m with you OP.

I have very a fair manager. She expects a high level of commitment and work and doesn’t suffer fools. However in return for producing a high volume and quality of work, she doesn’t give a shit where I am or what else I need to do during the day. As long as I show up professionally to meetings and in person things she does not give a hoot if I am cleaning my bathroom, hanging my washing out, going for a walk and frankly she has far too much of her own work to do!

I work in strategy and a lot of my job involves thinking about stuff. So if I am doing house jobs for half an hour during the day it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m not working - I am often mulling something over at the same time, and return to my desk ready to action it.

In return for our hard work my boss will often tell us to bugger off early on a Friday or not to log on again when we get home after an in person thing that ends at a weird time in the afternoon. And because of that I am willing to occasionally work over hours when required.

It’s not hard!

I always clock out to go to the shop or the school run etc. WFH is a big bonus for me so I don't like to take advantage.

WFH in professional services, senior management. I would do at home, what I would do in the office
So if I want a cup of tea, I make one
If I need to nip out to the corner shop for milk / chocolate I will

I wouldn't hang a wash up as that's longer than 5 minutes.

Being checked up on would piss me off and would be end of the road for me. I'm a grown up whose skills are in demand. I do not appreciate being micromanaged.

Edited to say I wouldn't work from a cafe. One of the reasons I can focus better here is the absolute quiet. Noise and banging in a cafe would make me less productive. A shared workspace in a professional building hired by the hour is more appropriate if you want to get out the house.

Not everyone has a job where they clock in and out though.

And working doesn’t always mean sitting at a computer, even when at home

This thread has very much highlighted that there are a lot of people who think being tied to sitting on a chair, staring at a screen for 8 solid hours is work and don’t appreciate that a wide range of jobs exist where some are more flexible in their approach, but are still work

As mentioned above if I want to pop out for a few hours to do something personal I can because the next day I may be sitting at that computer for 15 hours. It’s about doing the job, not how it’s done.

Working this way hasn’t done me too bad considering last year I got a top performance rating and a very healthy bonus so must be doing something right. And will continue to do so without being monitored by

I would find it suffocating too, and have never experienced that level of scrutiny in my previous or current companies.

If I notice that my direct reports are regularly offline on Teams, it does annoy me though and I take it into account when doing reviews/assessments, but in the same way i would of they spent their day chatting at the coffee machine in the office!
For pick up / drop off, or medical appointments, it's expected we block off the time in our agendas, usually people do this as private appointments.

The best move forward is an honest chat with your line manager. But if it's company policy it will be difficult and you might be better off moving on.

Given the nature of the OP's job, the unsocial hours and travel I'd say that doing these things is part of the give and take a reasonable employer would not bat an eyelid at. The checking up says the employer is all take. I would wonder if they were like that with everyone or whether there are any concerns about my performance or the company is in difficulties of some sort which means they are micromanaging and looking for excuses to potentially get rid of people and save salary spend. Imo those in senior management who are most suspicious about employees in these circumstances are those who are arrogant enough to think they are special cases because they work really long hours (usually remunerated highly accordingly) and who do non-work things in working hours.