WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

Or...you could sit at your desk and work taking breaks within your house.

I do. Only reason I wrote one is to stop my screen saver kicking in, when I monitoring data loads in the evening.

Would you pop out of the office to do all those things? Would it be allowed to go and get a chocolate bar from the shop when not on your break?

I think what you want is flexible working, whereas you have specific hours they expect you to be at your computer and available.

This is spot on. I have a role that gives similar flexibility (both ways) and would hate to be treated like this. I often pop to the shops or the dentist or wherever but I also respond to emails and teams messages at 9pm if they're urgent.

Unreasonable, what about breaks?!
I WFH and nobody bats an eyelid if I occasionally pop out due the day because I'm trusted to do my job and they know it all evens out because some days I'll be working late. Obviously if I was taking the piss and never at meetings or never available or not meeting deadlines questions would be asked, but honestly nobody is like that in my team.

A lot of people who work like this probably do more than their contracted hours over all.

We have to log out hours worked but within reason noone minds how or when we work them

Most people in jobs like the OP spend far more than 40 hours working so actually they should probably be paying her overtime (but they won't and no-one would expect to be paid overtime in this type of role).

I do think it sounds a bit suffocating.

But, if you are a senior employee who would be hard to replace, you need to act like one and not either get all upset or try to cheat the system.

You ask for a meeting with your boss in which you explain what you deliver to your employee and your expectations in return, one of which is managing your own time flexibly and not being hassled every time you pop out.

He will either agree or he won’t, in which case you can start looking for a new job and make sure that some flexibility over your time is built into your contract.

If you do a strict 9-5 WFH job then no, you probably shouldn't be away from your desk for long.

When you do a role with travel including early starts or with expectations of availability out of hours for calls or urgent matters then that's entirely different. I often send emails in the evening or join work calls at 7.30am or 6.30pm but, diary permitting, I will also work from the hairdressers or go to the gym during the day. There is no flexitime or TOIL, you get the job done and manage your time appropriately.

I think you need a conversation about expectations with your boss!

Both myself and boss wfh and do let each other know what's going on, more as courtesy e.g. I've got a plumber in today doing some work or "that call was awful, going for a walk to clear my head"! It's totally neutral and not done from a checking up perspective- he makes it very clear it's done from a courtesy perspective by offering the sane in reverse and that he's not measuring me by online time- progress reviews all positive etc.

Equally we have a very problem solving type role and therefore he acknowledges we don't do our best work at a desk and is often vocal that he needs a walk to do some good thinking and considers that work!

to your employer (not employee).

Yes, of course.

Note that OP mentions how she is flexible for the company’s benefit- working away with early starts and lates.

OP - I think you’ve got two choices. Either buy the mouse moving device - or have a firm word with your boss about give and take. Any company that expects travel plus early starts and lates should be flexible on brief pauses during the 9 to 5. Otherwise it should be 9 to 5 only.

Universities that have tried to impose 9 to 5/6 hours have had the inevitable pushback on out of hours working which they also want . I don’t see that employers should have it both ways.

Something in between the two extremes is normal and acceptable. Having an alert when employees go amber is bizarre and not a culture I’d be part of. At the same time, I wouldn’t allow my team to routinely work in cafes etc. They need to have an adequate set-up to focus and for confidentiality etc.

Just had a pay rise actually because my output and quality exceed the objectives I am set. And also put processes in place to make things more efficient and improved our customers experience

So no my salary is not docked because I went out for a Starbucks at 3pm yesterday

Spot on. There are days where I have to travel which means leaving home at 5am and getting home at 10pm. Am I getting paid overtime? No because it’s an expectation of my job.

So after that 10pm arrival home, the next day if I want to be a bit flexible on how my day looks I will

Now it’s nearly 9 so better go and start being productive before my manager catches me out

I am amazed at the amount of adult professionals who would prefer to try to cheat the system than have a professional conversation.

Senior professionals should be managed according to meeting objectives (which may include being available but only where actual business demands it) and not by the clock.

But, if they aren’t able to have this conversation, maybe they shouldn’t be senior professionals.

I have actually been up since 5am in order to get to my meetings today so I’ve definitely banked some ‘overtime’ I won’t get paid for today 😂

YANBU, unless there are performance issues then you should be trusted to manage your own time, especially if they are expecting flexibility and or antisocial travel from you.

The WFH thing seems like a red herring, if I was in the office I’d spend 10 mins having a chat or pop out to the post office regularly. Plus if they are doing this can you imagine how much time the managers are wasting.

If you’re already looking for a job TBH I’d just keep doing what you’re doing and see if anyone raises an issue.

I think a lot of people commenting here have not had long term experience wfh or are not in senior roles.
In a senior position there has to be trust both ways. I'm not a clock watcher who only performs 9-5. I frequently travel stupid hours, often on Sunday afternoons to be in place for meetings on a Monday morning. I regularly get up at 430am for work to catch a flight some days not getting home until 930 or 10pm a few days later.
My boss cares about the quality of my work and the output and how I manage my team and stakeholders.
He couldn't care less that I take 20 mins to do the school run each afternoon (I block my calendar for this as I also do for the odd dentist appointment or gym session).
If we are working as professional people and performing in our role , we shouldn't expect to be micro managed . There is just no need and it shows a lack of experience and trust from the manager.
Sticking on the washing machine or having a coffee break doesn't mean you are a skiver, it means you are a great multi-tasker 😎

I don't know how this happened, but having read this post earlier, my YouTube homepage randomly showed me short of how to program your computer to randomly move your mouse pointer every two seconds (i dabble with software). A quick search on google brought up several you can install on your machine for free 😂

The thing is, you can have conversations until you're blue in the face, but if your manager is one of those people who is convinced that you need to be chained to your desk for 9 hours straight, you're probably not going to get very far.

See all the responses on here from people who are outraged at the very idea of buying a chocolate bar on company time 😂

As long as you are making up the time you are missing, so you are fully working your hours each day, then where i work that is ok. It's a conversation you need t have with your manager about expectations

Hope your salary is docked accordingly

😂

Why?

I don't think your expectations are wrong. I have the same freedom so ling as I do my hours. I am customer facing, but have only had one call in a month so I log in and off as required. As far as I know I'm not monitored tho, no work phone or work laptop.