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solo day out - unwanted company

535 replies

FrescoeDay · 10/09/2024 21:16

I actually know I'm not being unreasonable but my reaction may be out of proportion and I need help wording my response for my desired outcome - solitude.

I'm on a sort of retreat in Italy. Tomorrow I arranged to go on a day trip away from the base to look at some art. I'd arranged for the car to the station, bought my train ticket and was looking forward to it. I told my next door room mate who told someone else who over dinner tonight said he was coming along 'if I didn't mind.' Of course I don't mind him going to the town and looking at the art. If he is here a week it is his opportunity. Of course I don't mind if he catches the same train - although, honestly, I don't want to chat and be friendly and 'on' for an hour plus on the train there (and back?!) Why should I?

I do not want to spend 6 hours going around museums galleries, churches, having lunch, with a stranger. I prefer to look at art alone at my own pace and have my own responses. But over dinner I could hardly say that. The prick (pardon me) cornered me. I am so angry I'm finding it hard to relax. This may be disproportionate. The thing is I am quite able to be cold and freeze people if I feel like it - but I don't want to introduce awkwardness let alone animosity. I am meeting the driver of the retreat tomorrow morning and this other unwanted guest. I don't want to stop him if this is his one chance to go to the town. But I refuse to have my day stolen from me because I end up being polite to this man. I need a healthy middle ground. I am 46. I can't believe I am still being imposed on like this. I don't want to snap but I may.

Thanks for hearing me out. Perspective needed. This has touched a nerve you can tell. I would just never ever do this.

OP posts:
TheMaddHugger · 12/09/2024 17:17

Spam Reported

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 17:30

OneTwoTen · 12/09/2024 16:26

I am incredibly tired of reading threads on here where women talk about their uniquely female experiences of dealing with crap male behaviour and knowing that it will only be a matter of time before someone pops up with a post along the lines of 'but what about the men?'

Whether you intended it to be or not, your post was a variant of that. Several people have pointed it out to you. Perhaps if you reflected on it instead of doubling down, you might come to understand that whether or not you meant to do it, that is what you have in fact done.

But I’m genuinely not saying ‘but what about the men?’ I have been sexually assaulted, coerced into sex and been at the sharp end of shitty male behaviour many times in my life. And I’m angry too.

But that immediately has my mind going to ‘so what needs to change?’ Men need to change and that’s on them. But steering the next generation of men whilst they are children, that’s on parents, of which I am one and this is a parenting forum.

The OP had said she thought this bloke fancied her and that was why he did what he did. There was then a general discussion about how men go about trying to communicate that/get what they want. Lots of stories about aggressive, predatory men whose egos are too fragile to cope with rejection.

So for the boys, the children, who are about to head into sexual maturity and will be pushed around by sex hormones, isn’t it a helpful question to ask how a parent can steer them so that this pattern of shitty, predatory and aggressive behaviour by men doesn’t continue?

Had the OP still been grappling with her current issue I’d not have asked but she had most awesomely sorted it and it had become a more general discussion.

I really don’t think I deserved the pile on. Especially not the personal insults. It wasn’t an apology for male behaviour, or a derailment, it was trying to add to the general discussion that had already emerged, about how the hell we change it and what insights people might add to help me do the bit I can to change things so that in the future threads like this and all the stories people have shared on this and other threads, of similar situations are far fewer.

Looking at my thread I can see I talked more personally and less generally which may look more like a derailment but it wasn’t intended to be. It was intended to add to the general discussion about the problem but with a focus on this part of the solution. How we parent boys is only one part of the solution of course but it’s probably the bit that most fits with MN.

Had I not been piled on I’d have not added much more after the couple of incredibly thoughtful and wise posts, that other mums of sons might read, and it might help them steer their sons too. I make no apology for that.

NPET · 12/09/2024 17:42

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 12/09/2024 13:14

I’d never ever tell a lone man no in private as that can be dangerous. Always in company and really firmly so others can hear too even if they are pretending to not be listening

Definitely agree. I learnt when I was 15 that saying No to a man isn't the closure you think and hope it is. One boy pursued me for six months and only stopped and literally moved house when another boy told him to f**k off because I was not interested. Which taught me 2 things - boys/men think I'm joking or playing 'hard to get' when I tell them where to go, and they take more notice of other boys/men than they do of me!

TypingoftheDead · 12/09/2024 18:08

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 16:01

I have been piled on on THIS thread and will continue to defend myself if it continues.

If you’d started your own thread (hijacking a thread is bad form, regardless of whether you think it’s tangentially related or not), maybe you’d have got more constructive responses.

SpiderGwen · 12/09/2024 18:16

@FrescoeDay - did you enjoy your solitary day with art today in the less scorching weather?

How did Mr Let’s Have Lunch behave when back in that larger group? Has he found a new victim woman to befriend?

Livingtothefull · 12/09/2024 18:17

Another quote from Dickens as follows. What is interesting about this is that despite not being renowned for his feminism (what mid-19th century male author was?) he seemed to entirely grasp the repulsiveness of this male behaviour.

Yet so many present day men seem to struggle to do this. What's more it seems to be entirely women's responsibility to educate them:

'Chancing to trip, in his abstraction, over the spreading root of an old tree, he raised his pious eyes to take a survey of the ground before him. It startled him to see the embodied image of his thoughts not far ahead. Mary herself. And alone.
At first Mr Pecksniff stopped as if with the intention of avoiding her; but his next impulse was to advance, which he did at a brisk pace; caroling as he went so sweetly and with so much innocence that he only wanted feathers and wings to be a bird.
Hearing notes behind her, not belonging to the songsters of the grove, she looked round. Mr Pecksniff kissed his hand, and was at her side immediately.
‘Communing with nature?’ said Mr Pecksniff. ‘So am I.’
She said the morning was so beautiful that she had walked further than she intended, and would return. Mr Pecksniff said it was exactly his case, and he would return with her.
‘Take my arm, sweet girl,’ said Mr Pecksniff.
Mary declined it, and walked so very fast that he remonstrated. ‘You were loitering when I came upon you,’ Mr Pecksniff said. ‘Why be so cruel as to hurry now? You would not shun me, would you?’
‘Yes, I would,’ she answered, turning her glowing cheek indignantly upon him, ‘you know I would. Release me, Mr Pecksniff. Your touch is disagreeable to me.’
His touch! What? That chaste patriarchal touch which Mrs Todgers—surely a discreet lady—had endured, not only without complaint, but with apparent satisfaction! This was positively wrong. Mr Pecksniff was sorry to hear her say it.
‘If you have not observed,’ said Mary, ‘that it is so, pray take assurance from my lips, and do not, as you are a gentleman, continue to offend me.’
‘Well, well!’ said Mr Pecksniff, mildly, ‘I feel that I might consider this becoming in a daughter of my own, and why should I object to it in one so beautiful! It’s harsh. It cuts me to the soul,’ said Mr Pecksniff; ‘but I cannot quarrel with you, Mary.’
She tried to say she was sorry to hear it, but burst into tears. Mr Pecksniff .... in his disengaged hand, catching hers, employed himself in separating the fingers with his own, and sometimes kissing them, as he pursued the conversation thus:
‘I am glad we met. I am very glad we met. I am able now to ease my bosom of a heavy load, and speak to you in confidence. Mary,’ said Mr Pecksniff in his tenderest tones, indeed they were so very tender that he almost squeaked: ‘My soul! I love you!’
A fantastic thing, that maiden affectation! She made believe to shudder.
‘I love you,’ said Mr Pecksniff, ‘my gentle life, with a devotion which is quite surprising, even to myself. I did suppose that the sensation was buried in the silent tomb of a lady, only second to you in qualities of the mind and form; but I find I am mistaken.’
She tried to disengage her hand, but might as well have tried to free herself from the embrace of an affectionate boa-constrictor; if anything so wily may be brought into comparison with Pecksniff.
‘Although I am a widower,’ said Mr Pecksniff, examining the rings upon her fingers, and tracing the course of one delicate blue vein with his fat thumb, ‘a widower with two daughters, still I am not encumbered, my love. One of them, as you know, is married. The other, by her own desire, but with a view, I will confess—why not?—to my altering my condition, is about to leave her father’s house. I have a character, I hope. People are pleased to speak well of me, I think. My person and manner are not absolutely those of a monster, I trust. Ah! naughty Hand!’ said Mr Pecksniff, apostrophizing the reluctant prize, ‘why did you take me prisoner? Go, go!’
He slapped the hand to punish it; but relenting, folded it in his waistcoat to comfort it again.
‘Blessed in each other, and in the society of our venerable friend, my darling,’ said Mr Pecksniff, ‘we shall be happy........ we will console each other. My pretty primrose, what do you say?’
‘It is possible,’ Mary answered, in a hurried manner, ‘that I ought to feel grateful for this mark of your confidence. I cannot say that I do, but I am willing to suppose you may deserve my thanks. Take them; and pray leave me, Mr Pecksniff.’
The good man smiled a greasy smile; and drew her closer to him.
‘Pray, pray release me, Mr Pecksniff. I cannot listen to your proposal. I cannot receive it. There are many to whom it may be acceptable, but it is not so to me. As an act of kindness and an act of pity, leave me!’
Mr Pecksniff walked on with his arm round her waist, and her hand in his, as contentedly as if they had been all in all to each other, and were joined in the bonds of truest love.
‘If you force me by your superior strength,’ said Mary, who finding that good words had not the least effect upon him, made no further effort to suppress her indignation; ‘if you force me by your superior strength to accompany you back, and to be the subject of your insolence upon the way, you cannot constrain the expression of my thoughts. I hold you in the deepest abhorrence. I know your real nature and despise it.’

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 18:19

TypingoftheDead · 12/09/2024 18:08

If you’d started your own thread (hijacking a thread is bad form, regardless of whether you think it’s tangentially related or not), maybe you’d have got more constructive responses.

Edited

As I have explained. I don’t agree that I hijacked. It had turned into a more general discussion and the OP had magnificently dealt with issue and has hopefully had a wonderful day of solitude. There is never a good enough reason to levy personal insults.

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 12/09/2024 18:23

TypingoftheDead · 12/09/2024 18:08

If you’d started your own thread (hijacking a thread is bad form, regardless of whether you think it’s tangentially related or not), maybe you’d have got more constructive responses.

Edited

Sorry quoted wrong person

Sevenwondersofthewoo · 12/09/2024 18:25

NPET · 12/09/2024 17:42

Definitely agree. I learnt when I was 15 that saying No to a man isn't the closure you think and hope it is. One boy pursued me for six months and only stopped and literally moved house when another boy told him to f**k off because I was not interested. Which taught me 2 things - boys/men think I'm joking or playing 'hard to get' when I tell them where to go, and they take more notice of other boys/men than they do of me!

Sadly all true and is still a problem to this day nothing has changed in fact I think it’s worse.

Witchbitch20 · 12/09/2024 19:39

How was your day @FrescoeDay ?

Did you see everything you wanted do in glorious peace?

HellonHeels · 12/09/2024 20:05

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 17:30

But I’m genuinely not saying ‘but what about the men?’ I have been sexually assaulted, coerced into sex and been at the sharp end of shitty male behaviour many times in my life. And I’m angry too.

But that immediately has my mind going to ‘so what needs to change?’ Men need to change and that’s on them. But steering the next generation of men whilst they are children, that’s on parents, of which I am one and this is a parenting forum.

The OP had said she thought this bloke fancied her and that was why he did what he did. There was then a general discussion about how men go about trying to communicate that/get what they want. Lots of stories about aggressive, predatory men whose egos are too fragile to cope with rejection.

So for the boys, the children, who are about to head into sexual maturity and will be pushed around by sex hormones, isn’t it a helpful question to ask how a parent can steer them so that this pattern of shitty, predatory and aggressive behaviour by men doesn’t continue?

Had the OP still been grappling with her current issue I’d not have asked but she had most awesomely sorted it and it had become a more general discussion.

I really don’t think I deserved the pile on. Especially not the personal insults. It wasn’t an apology for male behaviour, or a derailment, it was trying to add to the general discussion that had already emerged, about how the hell we change it and what insights people might add to help me do the bit I can to change things so that in the future threads like this and all the stories people have shared on this and other threads, of similar situations are far fewer.

Looking at my thread I can see I talked more personally and less generally which may look more like a derailment but it wasn’t intended to be. It was intended to add to the general discussion about the problem but with a focus on this part of the solution. How we parent boys is only one part of the solution of course but it’s probably the bit that most fits with MN.

Had I not been piled on I’d have not added much more after the couple of incredibly thoughtful and wise posts, that other mums of sons might read, and it might help them steer their sons too. I make no apology for that.

Christ on a bike @carleybup start your own thread this is a spectacular derail.

OP's post isn't about parenting boys, it isn't even about stopping this shitty man behaviour, it's about her experience and how to handle it.

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 20:13

HellonHeels · 12/09/2024 20:05

Christ on a bike @carleybup start your own thread this is a spectacular derail.

OP's post isn't about parenting boys, it isn't even about stopping this shitty man behaviour, it's about her experience and how to handle it.

Just replying to posts directed at me. I’m not tryIng to keep the conversation about parenting going. I’m just sticking up for myself! Im defending myself against attacks that have been aggressive and personal at times. So if you want me stop, stop directly attacking me and addressing me! The OP had sorted her issue spectacularly, so is no longer in need of this thread and it has become a more general thread about shitty male behaviour. So don’t try and make me feel guilty about the OP. She’s fine and has hopefully had a fantastic day!

Fraaahnces · 12/09/2024 20:18

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CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 20:20

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Why so horrible? This is bullying behaviour. It’s fine to not like something I’ve done or said but it’s not ok to get so personal. That’s like something a child would do!

Apolloneuro · 12/09/2024 22:31

@CarleyBup go and have a cup of tea. You’re making a silly fuss over nothing.

Feministwoman · 12/09/2024 22:33

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 20:20

Why so horrible? This is bullying behaviour. It’s fine to not like something I’ve done or said but it’s not ok to get so personal. That’s like something a child would do!

Oh FFS give it a rest!

You've been asked (and told) repeatedly, to start your own thread!

Your level of refusal and entitlement is typical of a man intruding on a thread in here.

Just go and start your own thread, for goodness' sake.

ThinWomansBrain · 12/09/2024 22:35

Car journey - be sociable, talk about how much your enjoying the solitude of being away from it all, what is intruder planning to do when you get to X?
Train - book or headphones. Both if he is persistent.

theundersea · 12/09/2024 22:38

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 15:02

FFS. I referenced that there are loads of posts that show yet again how men can be coercive and predatory and not pick up in cues etc. I’m am raising a son and thought that all of us who have experienced these shit situations are well placed to know what might help me, as a WOMAN, and a FEMINIST, and someone that became an adult at a time when coercion of women into sex was a norm, think of helpful conversations and advice that I can give my son who is in the cusp of adolescence so that the next generation of WOMEN won’t have to put up with this shit. And some posters have been extremely helpful. Done have been unnecessarily aggressive. I’m not the enemy here.

This is not your thread. Ask your "thoughtful" question, in a thoughtful manner - ie on your own thread. You're being as demanding as this man was of OP's time and planned solo day out on this thread, demanding we pander to your fantasies of your son's wistful future not upsetting women by being a presumptuous demanding arsehole accidentally and who women might, sob, ridicule...

Free tip: tell him women worry we might be raped and murdered, not about being ridiculed.

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 22:40

Apolloneuro · 12/09/2024 22:31

@CarleyBup go and have a cup of tea. You’re making a silly fuss over nothing.

I am making a ‘silly fuss over nothing’? Wow. Actually I will continue to stand up for myself when posters are getting personal and nasty. Always. I won’t be bullied into submission.

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 22:43

Feministwoman · 12/09/2024 22:33

Oh FFS give it a rest!

You've been asked (and told) repeatedly, to start your own thread!

Your level of refusal and entitlement is typical of a man intruding on a thread in here.

Just go and start your own thread, for goodness' sake.

If you want me to STFU then stop directly addressing posts to me. It’s not rocket science. 😊

Apolloneuro · 12/09/2024 22:46

You’re really overreacting and making a bit of a fool of yourself.

ThinWomansBrain · 12/09/2024 22:48

I remember a retreat that involved Alexander Technique in greece - fist week was in a remote village, enforced group meals because there was only one restaurant.
Second week we moved to a busy island resort - night off from group meals.
One by one, everyone came along and asked me if we could sneak off for a quiet meal without the group. Ended up with nearly all the group in the breakout escape group - about ten of us. Only people not with us a weird couple (a woman that was forever telling us she was a wolf and howling at full volume, and that she was a healer and touching me, and the couple who were hosting the thing. Weird couple were soooo pissed off when they encountered us altogether when they were on their way back to the hotel.

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 22:48

theundersea · 12/09/2024 22:38

This is not your thread. Ask your "thoughtful" question, in a thoughtful manner - ie on your own thread. You're being as demanding as this man was of OP's time and planned solo day out on this thread, demanding we pander to your fantasies of your son's wistful future not upsetting women by being a presumptuous demanding arsehole accidentally and who women might, sob, ridicule...

Free tip: tell him women worry we might be raped and murdered, not about being ridiculed.

I have, for the last several (and most of my) posts, simply replied to posts that name me specifically and stood up for myself against some pretty horrible posters. This anger is misplaced. What is derailing this thread is constantly quoting me and addressing me directly. You want me to STFU then stop posting to me. Simple really 😊

theundersea · 12/09/2024 22:49

ImaniMumsnet · 12/09/2024 16:08

Hello,

we have received some reports about derailing which we are looking into and will get in touch with concerned posters off the boards, but we would like to remind all posters to please keep discussions directly related to the OP’s posts.

Thanks!

Did you miss this?

CarleyBup · 12/09/2024 22:51

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