solo day out - unwanted company

[FrescoeDay]

I actually know I'm not being unreasonable but my reaction may be out of proportion and I need help wording my response for my desired outcome - solitude.

I'm on a sort of retreat in Italy. Tomorrow I arranged to go on a day trip away from the base to look at some art. I'd arranged for the car to the station, bought my train ticket and was looking forward to it. I told my next door room mate who told someone else who over dinner tonight said he was coming along 'if I didn't mind.' Of course I don't mind him going to the town and looking at the art. If he is here a week it is his opportunity. Of course I don't mind if he catches the same train - although, honestly, I don't want to chat and be friendly and 'on' for an hour plus on the train there (and back?!) Why should I?

I do not want to spend 6 hours going around museums galleries, churches, having lunch, with a stranger. I prefer to look at art alone at my own pace and have my own responses. But over dinner I could hardly say that. The prick (pardon me) cornered me. I am so angry I'm finding it hard to relax. This may be disproportionate. The thing is I am quite able to be cold and freeze people if I feel like it - but I don't want to introduce awkwardness let alone animosity. I am meeting the driver of the retreat tomorrow morning and this other unwanted guest. I don't want to stop him if this is his one chance to go to the town. But I refuse to have my day stolen from me because I end up being polite to this man. I need a healthy middle ground. I am 46. I can't believe I am still being imposed on like this. I don't want to snap but I may.

Thanks for hearing me out. Perspective needed. This has touched a nerve you can tell. I would just never ever do this.

And you love a pile-on don't you?
Does it make you feel good to be 3rd man in the tackle?

But ALWAYS a man...

Well done OP!
@Sevenwondersofthewoo some weird older bloke tried to pick 14 year old me up in a library and got quite rude when rebuffed. I'm now convinced it was Alan Clark - ex MP / cabinet minister and acolyte of Maggie. Considering he married a compliant 16 year old when 30 - not so out of realms of possibility.
I've had so many instances of blokes getting verbally aggressive when rebuffed - usually along the lines of 'eff off, I didn't fancy you anyway'. I was away on a school trip (15) when accosted by bloke, whereupon being rejected, summoned his friends and was suddenly surrounded by three mates. Luckily, fellow school student saw what was happening and came to my aid - bloke put hands up in supplication and said 'hey, I was only saying she reminded me of my sister'! Same trip we were trapped inside a 6 berth train compartment by a load of GIs - you couldn't make it up! Teachers were too busy shagging each other to notice what was going on.

Forgot to flag well done @FrescoeDay. So annoying your plan was hijacked for nefarious purposes and do hope that tomorrow (today?) will turn out better, weather wise for a good wander around - on your timetable.

No, it's classy because it's classic MN. It's a quote from a post on another thread which amused quite a few of us. It still makes me smile when I see it as a username, so thanks, @Idontjetwashthefucker 💐🍷🍷

Is it so terrible another human asks to share a lift somewhere, or even suggests spending time with someone they’ve met on holiday? You just say ‘Ah sorry, but I really want to spend the day on my own.’ If, at THAT point, he was pushy or insistent or judged you or whatever- that would annoy me. I don’t think you can just expect to always be left alone, people can’t read your mind- people are allowed to ask reasonable questions, and you are allowed to say no.

Perhaps you need to read the OP’s posts again, in order to fully comprehend what actually happened, @RoseGoldEagle?

The willful misunderstanding on this thread reminds me of men who persist in ignoring being told no.

If you read the updates you'll see the OP did say no a few times and he kept on and on about it, even suggesting they spend the day together and had lunch together. Then he tried to get her phone number.

So no, he wasnt "reasonable" in any shape or form.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out that the OP was seething long before he made it clear he was planning to spend the day with her, which only happened when they were about to leave. She was fuming when all he’d said was ‘I’m coming, if you don’t mind’ over dinner the night before, and she’d said she didn’t mind.

I don’t think anyone has suggested she was in the least unreasonable to be annoyed at the idea of having her solo day hijacked.

But getting so outraged about something that was entirely in her control, and getting angry enough to post on the internet about it well before it was even plain that the guy was presumptuous enough to think she wanted his company, is a bit disproportionate.

The fact that so many other Mners were also furious about it says more about the number of people-pleasers on here, who were in awe that the OP actually said no, and then aborted the trip altogether. Because they wouldn’t have felt able to say no, presumably, and would have spent the day passive-aggressively seething, because the guy should have known? Sure he should, but all you can control is your own behaviour.

The OP could have definitely handled it better at the table (or after in private). Here she could have made clear she was happy to share a lift but it was a solo day had been looking forward to , so nothing personal but there would be no lunch or joint gallery trip.

However, I think if it made no difference to her holiday timings, it was probably the pragmatic approach to swap days given how pushy he was even after having the conversation given it was supposed or be purely for pleasure predicated upon solitude. The possibility of him appearing wanting to chat would have been hanging over however firm she was.

It's not like it's something she's got to manage and endure like an annoying neighbour or colleague. It's one enjoyable day and she took the wise decision to bail rather than be polite.

Sorry that was to @AtYourOwnRisk

There are a few posts like this and I can totally relate. But what advice would we all give to a young boy who is about to hit puberty and head towards sexual maturity, in terms of how to form romantic/sexual relationships in a respectful and boundaried way?

I’m 50 and married for 18 years now so haven’t had to think about how you meet people to see if there is a romantic spark for a long time.

I’m thinking about my lovely DS who asked me the other day how you do go about starting to date. He’s only 12 and not interested yet but we were talking about a friend of his. I said, well firstly you make friends with people and then if you like them in that way then you ask them out. He said ‘but you’d get ridiculed if they said no’ and I can well believe it. So in his head he’s too scared of ridicule to ask outright.

But I was thinking about my previous relationships and marriage and how they started. My husband and I were friends and he then, very sweetly, asked me out on a date. I don’t think I’ve had a lasting relationship with anyone that wasn’t a friend first and whenever I’ve been chatted up and then gone on a date it’s never worked out. When I tried OLD for a short period that didn’t work out either.

Would love to hear what others would tell my DS. Was my advice the best? But then if he’s not brave enough to ever ask.., reading cues is good. I can help him with that.

I think you’re conflating two things: how to develop a friendship / relationship with someone who is interested in doing so, and how men can occupy social space without assuming that all women in it are there for their comfort and convenience

What bothers me about your post @CarleyBup is that there is a slight tone of "oh poor menz can't approach anyone nowadays" which is wearying, because this is the language used by men who used to capitalise on the rational, risk-averse forced agreeableness of women in the past which is slightly, thank goodness, going out of fashion. Actually men, like women, just need to develop social skills which make them nice to be around, reasonably but sensitively outgoing, and have the sense to know when they are wanted and when they are not. They do not need to whine about how "you can't even approach anyone any more" unless they are basically admitting that they regret the days when you could acceptably extort attention and more from women.

Your son is in a different position, because his social milieu is school, which is a weird and artificial social hellscape. Advice for being socially skilled is completely different for school aged children than for adults, because in the adult world a friendly approach is usually either accepted or reasonably politely rebuffed ("what a lovely day" would get either "yes, isn't it!" or "what? Oh I suppose so, I'm reading" - at which point you smile and walk off). At school if you tried that you would be pursued for weeks by hyenas shrieking "Lovely day is it today? How lovely do you think it is today? Do you think it's as lovely as when you said so last week? More or less lovely? HA HA HA HA AH AHA Oh look, he looks sad, maybe it isn't lovely today"

So my advice to your son would be to make friends out of school if possible, and look forward to everyone being grown up.

No. That’s not the slight tone thank you. I am writing as a woman, a feminist AND the mother of a 12 year old boy who is learning about social relationships and is about to get a surge of hormones and I’m genuinely asking for thoughts about what the advice would be from other feminist women as I’m very aware I need to help him to grow and develop into a man!

Indeed. I would bet that all of the women that I know have experienced this kind of encounter in its essence many, many times.

@CarleyBup

I think the best advice is for your son to make friends first. See women as complete human beings with preferences and insecurities just like him rather than as these mythical creatures to date. We arent a different species, we have feelings and worries and concerns just as men do. We also have to deal with a fear of men that men will never fully understand. He needs to know this because it's important. He may fear ridicule but we fear being physically hurt.

Social cues are important, as is body language and tone of voice. Nothing wrong with asking a woman out but it should be done in a non pressured, respectful way and if she says no, thats fine and it should be immediately respected. No trying to persuade or cajole, no means no. It isnt a reflection on his worth - he wont be everyone's cup of tea, just as not everyone will be his so no need for anger or irritation or feeling massive rejection.

Build up his own self esteem so that he recognises that a "no" doesnt = him being worthless. So many men approach dating from the view of what can the woman give to me, rather than, what can I give to them?

I think the portrayal of persistence in films for example is awful. I can think of so many popular films where a woman says no to a man, the man wont give up and relentlessly pursues the woman over and over again and eventually "wins her over" - its a bloody terrible message to send to men that persistence and not respecting no pays off. It doesnt. That doesnt happen in real life. If I say no to a man, him virtually stalking me wont make him suddenly attractive- quite the opposite in fact. It makes him seem dangerous and unhinged.

If he really wants to know why women act the way they do sometimes he should read "the gift of fear" by Gavin DeBecker. Its not a comfortable read for a man (and he's probably too young to read it now) but it describes perfectly why women are afraid of men and how we override our instincts due to social conditioning.

The ultimate lesson from that book is: "Men's worst fear is that women will laugh at them. Women's worst fear is that men will kill them".

It's important for men to know this and recognise it.

I think probably the most important thing is considering whether the other person is likely to welcome an advance in that moment - or whether he would be putting his own needs/wants first.

If a girl/woman is sitting with air pods in and reading a book on a train, not glancing up or making eye contact, she’s unlikely to respond well to a boy/man tapping her on the arm to get her attention to make conversation.

Have an understanding that a girl/woman by herself might be having a lovely time - we don’t always need company.

And vitally, if you approach a girl/woman and she clearly isn’t interested then walk away with good grace, without showing aggression or negativity. Women are allowed to say no without having to make excuses. As is often said here on MN, “no is a full sentence”.

And I say all this as the mother of a DD and a DS.

@achipandachair your description of school made me laugh! 😂😂😂 So very accurate….

Thank you for such a thoughtful post. I feel like a thread for mums of teenage boys could be helpful. Your advice is superb. I think having grown up with the likes of Benny Hill on the TV and coercion being the norm, and not having had to deal with dating etc for years I sometimes feel like I’m a bit too out of touch.

He has female friends out of school that he gets on really well with so that’s a good start. I talk to him about sexism and racism. Unfortunately his last school was actually sexist towards the boys and that didn’t help and at his current school there is a definite ‘us and them’ mentality and if you are friends with someone of the opposite sex you are teased. He does have one female friend who sits with him and his friends at lunch sometimes. He’s very empathic and caring (on a good day) so he’s got good building blocks. I just know hormones and how the adolescent brain develop are going to hijack him somewhat for a while.

I laughed at that too - 'a weird and artificial social hellscape' is about right... 😁

I absolutely LOVE solo days out! I possibly enjoy my own company a bit too much. Such days are all the more precious now that I have a child as well as the job and the normal domestic/personal administrative chores. I'm fairly direct and have told people this when they've asked to tag along and unfortunately it doesn't go down too well, they tend not to ask again -- that's the downside. But you'd probably never see this person again after the retreat anyway.

Why are you on this thread with your question about your son @CarleyBup ? What’s the connection? That means that you feel that here is the place for us to talk about his needs?
if not some underlying sympathy with annoying needy males (ok I believe you, also believe your son isn’t one, also believe he went to a “sexist” school against boys) - why here?

I feel like a thread for mums of teenage boys could be helpful.

I’m certain I’ve seen countless such threads here. But you could start one, @CarleyBup .