AIBU in expecting my teen boys to have tidy rooms

[Newbutoldfather]

I have two teen boys, early and mid teens. I expect them to keep their rooms tidy. This is non-negotiable. They need to be perfectly tidy at least once a week, so the cleaner can clean them. They can take water to their bedrooms but all other drink and food has to be eaten downstairs.

They have become pretty good at it and only need the odd nudge now, Also bedrooms are not ‘private space’. Unless the door is closed, in which case I will knock, we all go in one another’s rooms.

They can express their creativity (although don’t seem that bothered) by putting up posters or painting the walls (well, not personally, without help).

I think all the above is good role modelling and prepares them well for adult life, where spills, damage and rotting food have real consequences in terms of damaging a house and financial cost.

The reason I ask is the amount of threads where teenage rooms are vile with spills, rotting food and, less importantly, old and smelly clothes thrown anywhere and everywhere. And so many posters say that you have to respect their ‘private’ space and that they are teens and can’t help it (often, ridiculously, due to ‘lack of brain development.)

I wanted to do an AIBU to see if I was in the silent majority or if most people do see teen’s rooms as theirs to neglect and damage should they so wish.

@Hoppingblackbird ,

‘If anything op’s kids are lazy as shit, if they need a cleaner to clean their rooms for them’.

Attacking people’s children on here is particularly crass. It says more about you than them. Are you really saying everyone who has a cleaner is ‘lazy as shit’?!

@NyeRobey ,

‘The reason I give some autonomy to my teens in their rooms is because I believe in intrinsic motivation. I believe my messy son will learn in his own time that if he leaves his homework on the floor and chucks some boxers over it when he takes them off, he won't find his homework on the day it's due and will get a detention. Or if he leaves his favourite t shirt scrunched up in the corner instead of putting it in the laundry, he will not be able to wear it to that gig. He will learn that systems work and will internalise that learning and carry it forward to uni and beyond.’

A detention is just extrinsic motivation that you have delegated!

I get your argument but I doubt you would be happy if schools left them to lose stuff, not complete homework, be on their phones all day etc and, when they failed their exams, said that was a natural consequence and would teach them better habits going forward.

I do think some people want it both ways. They say that teens lack executive control so need to be excused bad habits, but don’t think that means adults have to support them in gaining better habits.

It seems to be maximum autonomy and minimum responsibility which, to me, is not a good combination.

Absolutely not. But you seem to pride yourself on how you are being a great parent because you teach them to have tidy rooms. When in reality you don’t teach them to take good care of their rooms themselves. It’s an important skill to have, so I don’t think you should pat yourself on your shoulder too hard. That is what I am saying.

I expected my DS rooms to be tidy so I could clean them. I expected clothes in the washing basket, and didn't allow food in their rooms. If they weren't, they had to clean the room themselves, to my standards.

When they went to university the state of their rooms showed that they'd not taken any of that onboard and they were messy sods.

They've grown out of it now, and do keep their places tidy.

I unsuccessfully tried to enforce this with my DS1 who is now 22 and no longer live at home. I regret how much we argued about it. I now live in a tidy house, but miss DS’s mess…..

I've always had a much more hands off approach to my teens - I never helicoptered over their homework etc

A very simple discussion about choice and consequence seemed to do the trick.

They had varying degrees of messy - but then if they had friends round they cleaned like maniacs. When the older two went to Uni and had to live with other, seriously messy people, they upped their game and are very tidy at home now when they are back. Youngest is a neat freak, 15 and her room is always clean - her choice.

They had to learn to do their washing and make food as if mum was at work till late they had 2 choices - do it or go hungry/have no pants!

The consequences were their own - as was the impact.

If they broke their things they paid for replacements - from their jobs!

They don't need micromanaging - they need to be allowed to understand the consequence as they impact them - such as buggering up one a level and having to postpone uni for a year. That's kind of how you form autonomous, self sufficient adults

Well you can always hope!

Can't understand the hate op is getting at all. Op yanbu. I agree with most of your posts.

Especially agree with this You know, it takes ages to really have a messy room! It is a bit like weeding, weeds don’t grow suddenly. If you tidy weekly, it takes 5-10 minutes tops, and I always help them if they are not sure of what to do

We don't allow any food in the dc's rooms. We didn't used to have this rule and I was sick of finding half the contents of our kitchen cupboards up there plus mould food. We stopped it, it's so much better.

I make my teenagers tidy/clean their room daily never mind weekly 😱

They have a list of things they have to do before they go to sleep every night:
*All clothes away - clean in wardrobe, dirty in wash basket.

• Rubbish - any rubbish in the bin
• Glasses - any uses glasses in the sink
• Floor - floor is cleared and hoovered if necessary.

It takes them LESS than five minutes a day - because they do it every single day. Room always looks tidy as a result, they have a pleasant space. Far better imo than abandoning them to fester in messy, mouldy dens all full of clothes and rubbish and crockery.

No because you have jumped to the extreme position again.
I don't advocate maximum autonomy and minimum responsibility.
I advocate some guided autonomy in zones where there are opportunities and as much responsibility as is age appropriate. For example if they don't take their homework in and get a detention, that's too bad so sad territory.

I am by no means advocating total autonomy. I am not allowing my son to shoot up heroin in his room or store stolen goods. I am not allowing him to bunk off school or stay out til 3 am.

On the other hand, I am not micromanaging whether his bed is made or if he has left his uniform on the floor. He'll soon learn when he has no clean shirt, and it'll be his fault that he doesn't because it's his responsibility to put shirts in the wash. It's his responsibility to put his homework in his bag. There's plenty of responsibility, AND autonomy, AND expectations.

This is the approach we had. Never asked much about homework. It got done, and if DS decided to wing it, he found out the consequenses himself. He loved his clothes, and had a colour coordinated wardrobe from the age of 16 (he is now 22). 😅

His dad is a fantastic parent I have to say, they are great friends and even DC’s friends Facetime DH when they are out partying or travelling. I don’t think micromanaging is the answer to everything. Kids are only kids for so long.

Also as someone who mentioned executive control earlier, you are completely wrong about the idea that because teens have poor executive functions (they do, proven by research) that they need to be "excused bad habits".

It's not about excusing bad habits. It's about understanding typical development and making some adjustments to supports accordingly.

Some babies learn to walk at 9 or 10 months. Others learn to walk at 18 months. That doesn't mean the ones on the later end of the developmental curve are being "excused the bad habits" of not knowing how to walk. They might need to practice walking holding hands longer, they might need to use balancing toys or they might need supportive shoes.

Your whole attitude to brain development is strange tbh. You seem to regard it as a lack of moral fibre to have a brain that finds some things tricky. It really isn't a moral issue.

I don't go into my teen's room. She's old enough to clean it herself (no cleaner). She also has an en suite she cleans herself. I know it gets messy, mostly clothes on the floor (she rarely takes food there and has a water bottle). About once a month she does a massive tidy.
My son is no longer at home but he goes through the same thing - no food but clothes are scattered about then he does a tidy.
My room is messier as I tend to pile my clothes on a dresser and over the door rather than hang them up 😬.
I don't ever shut my door and my Dd does only to keep the cats out. I wouldn't go in her room without asking though.
They have art not posters on the walls. I painted it in whatever colour they chose.
I find very tidy people tend to breed very tidy people! My DH was always tidy. Neither child seems to have inherited that!

I'm going to come at this from a slightly different angle. I was the child of the parent who thought this sort of thing was vitally important. I moved out at 18 and discovered the world doesn't end if you have a floordrobe. I did revel for a bit in the joys of eating in the bedroom of my flat (but always took the dishes straight out).

My boyfriend at the time (who became my DH and, 30 years on, still is) came from a totally different situation. His parents' house was messy af. It was so much more relaxed and I loved it. He came round to my mum's and was scared to sit down lest he creased the sofa.

When he moved in with me in the flat, he was most amused at my cleaning before my mother came round. I genuinely felt that she might go round running a white glove over the shelves. She never actually did, but I still thought she did in her head.

At 50, I'm still not 'mother' tidy, but certainly tidier than the teenaged me when first freed from a world of perpetual neatness. And nobody has died. I grew up thinking being untidy was some dreadful failing. It really isn't. As others have said, there's ground between 'new pin neat' and abject filth.

It's not that your expectations are unreasonable as such. It's just not as important to the future health and wellbeing of your children as you think it is. The world won't end if they aren't tidy. They won't end up living in absolute pigsties for ever if they don't have an immaculate bedroom every week at home.

It IS important they know how to clean, have chores in the rest of the house and appreciate shared spaces. But it's also important they have their own space they feel relaxed in. I never felt I had that at home (one of many reasons I was out of there at 18).

@NyeRobey ,

You are misreading a lot of my posts.

I think a lot on here excuse teens behaving terribly due to their ‘brain development’.I agree with you that, with support, most teens can do most things and high expectations are essential.

Teens are more risk-seeking, as we get older we become more risk averse.

As I say to my own teens, we all need to work with what we have. For them, it is double checking what they may want to do for safety and sense. For me, getting older, it is more pushing myself to do things I may be worried about, Who is to say which brain is better adapted to its environment.

But 15 was school leaving age in my lifetime, and people used to hold down jobs, which entailed keeping deadlines, getting up in the morning, keeping their workspace tidy etc, so they really can do it if correctly incentivised.

What has that got to do with them not having their own space to feel relaxed in?

I'm a bit shocked by the majority of the responses here. I agree with you OP; my kids have to tidy and clean their rooms once a week, or they have treats / gaming times / sleepovers / ... removed. Maybe it's cultural; I'm not from the UK, and my parents would have gone apeshit if I'd have left dirty plates in my rooms or clothes on the floor (or the bed even).

His child doesn't clean though? So how can he be right to lecture us over it?

His children tidy, ready for someone else to come and clean and lose a quid from a healthy allowance if they don't?

It's hardly the hidden secret to parenting teens he seems to think it is.

The OP pays someone to clean their rooms.

You sound a bit like your trying to reinvent the wheel.

Everything you've talked about it is how many many many women parent. Yet you seem to think you've got the answer on how to raise a perfect teen who will turn into a perfect adult.

I feel bad because your so proud yet it's nothing new.

How does your ex wife treat them at her house?

@YellowphantGrey ,

It is you making this into such a big deal. I do wonder why you are so obsessed with me and this thread?

Seriously, you have no need to feel bad. I and my lovely boys are perfectly happy.

How is your ex husband doing with your kids?

Do you apply the same principle to other areas of their lives like homework, times to come home, their phone uses? Because you could. Why don’t they just need to learn to manage those?

And what if the consequence of the messy room is losing school books, chargers etc. Who replaces them?

I am a firm believer in giving teens age appropriate autonomy in line with the responsibility they are prepared to take for it. But this means building up slowly and scaffolding.

Again with the zero sum thinking! If you don't run your teens' life with perfectionism and rigidity, everything else will fall apart. It's nonsense. I raised two now young adults through their teens and absolutely didn't make the demands you make of yours - some mess was allowed, perfection was not required, autonomy grew gradually despite us taking a flexible approach and voila - they turned out fine. They're good with money, look after their stuff, academically successful, hardworking and independent.

You seem to believe there is only one correct way to raise teenagers. This is honestly bullshit.

Generally, when people start threads, people respond, then to each other, so on and so forth.

Replying to you more than once doesn't mean someone is obsessed with you, bit bizarre you would think that.

And you refer to your set up as "my boys" and "my room" so I thought I'd ask how they are parented at their Moms house or how much time they spend there and whether you really think you've done the work or whether it's actually your ex wife that's done it. The way you refer to it as all your doing also hints at you parenting alone. Nevermind the fact you've come on here and lectured everyone else about how it would all be better if done your way.

I have ND children with executive function issues. (The apples may well have not fallen far from the tree...)

Food largely remains in the kitchen to avoid mess. Clean food (that leaves little mess, won't spill, fragment, go sticky, rot etc) can leave the kitchen but evidence needs to be tidied away. That takes care of hygiene.

If they don't clear their clean laundry basket into their drawers, then they obviously have plenty and it's not my priority to wash. If dirty clothes are not in the basket, then I can't find them to wash them.
I'm not fussed if things are cluttery. There is little harm that will come from that.
Occasionally DS (11) will have a tidying session of his own accord and that is far more beneficial to his development than being micromanaged.

There is not a universal standard of tidy. The range of functionally tidy is wide.

I need visual prompts. Out of sight is out of mind. People that put appliances out of sight are not wrong, but if I put things like the toaster or kettle away, I may as well bin them for all the use they'd get. In our house, we need things at point of use.

I once had an idiot employer that believed in the nonsense of "clear desk" policies aka how to be completely disorganised, lose things and get totally sidetracked because you can't keep it grab-able and in sight as a prompt. Stashing items away to appease some random over-zealous tidy standard just means it builds up into a proper problematic mess when it can no longer be contained.

After a recent deep-clean of the kitchen before going on holiday, it was actually unpleasant in there because of the echo. Minimalism can be very uncomfortable and sterile in the way some people find maximalism too much. Many people find seeing their possessions out openly, much more cosy and relaxing and it's often stimulating and motivating. Teenagers need some leeway to hold a comfortable standard which may not be the same as their parents'. It's also not an indicator of how they will manage their spaces as adults.

Tidiness is not a bad thing, but it's not a moral virtue either, and there's too many people spending their lives feeling shit because they're judged for failing to meet unsustainable standards that don't work for the way their brains work when functioning and good enough will suffice. There's often a load of shit advice being recycled that doesn't work for all ("never leave a room empty-handed" aka, take something and 10 actions later wonder what you were intending half an hour ago)

The irony is that I was nagged at through my teenage years for being messy, but given no proper storage or strategies to do anything more effective than shove it under the bed or pile it in a cupboard and hope it was enough to appease the parent. Naturally as soon as I needed something, it all got pulled out to find it.

Tidyness is one of the few skills in life that we're randomly expected to have and just aquire and are unlikely to actually be taught other than blundering a way towards an outcome.

Having a cleaner in teenage bedrooms doesn't teach anything. I was somehow expected to feel grateful for someone coming in and interfering with my things while I was at school.

I haven’t read all replies but I’m with you OP.

I expect my teens, boys and girls, to keep their respective rooms clean and tidy. Obviously, they sometimes have to be reminded to do this but my view is we have a nice house, they have a nice lifestyle and in return, they tidy up after themselves and keep their rooms tidy.

DS14 is a messy one with bits of computers and things he's made and 3D printing stuff all over the place. DS16 is a neat freak and it's the tidiest room in the house. He's always taking the hoover up there (and dumping it in the spare room so he doesn't tidy that!)