To ask ds to go out more

[treadingcarefree]

Ds 24 is always in and always observing me. If I'm on the phone he'll stand around listening and laughing, commenting on my conversation.

Ds9 has autism and it's been the summer holidays and he can be very hard to manage when he has a meltdown and ds will stand and watch and observe, if he's in the kitchen for example and I'm trying to manage ds he'll pop his head out to watch and observe.
I constantly feel analysed as he stands watching what's going on.
Ds work compressed hours so is home 4 days a week under my feet watching what I do. It's like having a helicopter constantly hovering in the room.
I have asked him if he can go out occasionally instead of spending 4 solid days at home, he's here every evening too but he just says I've got no plans or nowhere to go.
He's driving me nuts being around, I'd like some privacy.
Ds9 is back to school today and I could really do with some time to myself after the 6 weeks holiday to unwind but he's sitting beside me as usual and I don't feel I can even make a phone call to chat with a friend.
It feels so suffocating.

And I do think his behaviour is not at all normal. He seems to have no understanding of social norms. He’s like a five year old constantly interrupting parents’ conversations and following them round the house.

I do get it. When DD lived here I enjoyed her company but found her constant presence a bit much. She has moved out now. What might work?
1.tell him to stop hovering over you or observing. Make it an absolute firm rule.
2.Have a conversation about fair use of the space in the house involve your dh

1. Make sure he has household tasks and errends he is responsible for - eg garden maintainence, food shop, taking stuff to tip, collecting parcels, cleaning bathroom
2. Charge an appropriate amount for bed and board so it's not such a huge leap to move out.

5.ask him to baby sit his brother so you can go out with dh 6.if you have room, set up a separate area to relax so that you are not always in the same space.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not. She should lock herself in her room because he can't stop himself from hovering over her and listening to her messages while being so critical of her. Then what happens to her younger son with needs? She locks him in her room as well so she can attend to him without the critical glare of her older son?

No he is 24 and the plan should be to get him to independence so he can move out and live his life. He does not get to trap her in her own home for the rest of her life.

He sounds very odd. Have you asked him directly why he watches you? With his sarcastic comments and digs I'd tell him to stop immediately. No-one likes a know all. Give him a month to shape up or tell him to sling his hook.

This.

I must admit he sounds a bit ND to me too but in any case he lacks social skills and empathy. He won't leave you alone on your date night! There are places he can go on his own to give you some peace (McD's, library, cinema, pub etc) if he wanted to. He actually sounds a bit clingy and manipulative tbh.

He needs to join a club or something. Does he have any interests? It could be hobby wise or educational, usually the local FE college runs day and evening courses for adults. Does he ever date? If all he ever says he has nowhere to go and nothing to do help him find things. He shouldn't be this clueless at 24!

Are you sure he's not ND as well? That's a really unusual way for a man of 24 to behave.

Tell him to stop. Stop listening to you on the phone. Stop commenting on your parenting. Set clear boundaries.

I would take phonecalls in your room with door closed.

When ds9 upset and he is loitering be direct "give us some space please your brother does not need an audience"

Be honest and dorect and if he makes any passive aggressive comments ignore them it is his problem not yours.

He's an adult.
He needs to move out and make his own life.

He may be nd but he didn't meet the criteria for assessment and was instead diagnosed with anxiety and was treated with CBT.
He says he's fine now and it worked for him.

As for a gf he had a 2 year on off relationship when he was much younger but in his words he doesn't have a lot of luck with girls.

I'm not scared of him as someone said but I'm worried if he doesn't leave of his own accord and when he's ready he will resent us and not stay in contact.

I'm going to sit down and have a chat with him about his long term plans with dh (who someone asked about his dad and he is his)

As for myself I do believe I am probably autistic but I don't have a diagnosis, perhaps why I find ds so overwhelming as I do need time to just recharge.
I also think if I can manage to run a home and live independently then he can as he's much brighter than me, he doesn't like house rules or authority and struggles with it so I can't imagine he would want to live at home with any restrictions forever. I know I couldn't.

you say telling him to leave would affect your relationship with him but he's driving you bonkers now!! He's an adult FFS, time to have an adult conversation. What does he pay you for board and lodging?

So what do I do then tell him to move out and probably never see him again or just tolerate it for a future relationship with him.

Why would you never see him again or not have any future relationship with him if he moved out??

My ultimate goal is for him to move out now as it just feels time but I know he won't see any justification in that and will probably just say well where am I going to go.

He would go to his own place, that he rents and pays for with his own money because he is a 24 year old man who is working and should support himself. Room in a shared flat, studio, room in a shared house, lodger in someone else's house, whatever. Or he can lodge with you to save a deposit, as many people do these days, but then he has to behave like an adult lodger, and actually be saving towards this, or paying you rent that you keep on one side for a future deposit (only if you don't need the money to cover your increased costs of having another adult at home).

The point of raising children is not actually to raise a child - you're raising the future adult they will become. Leaving home and building a different kind of relationship with your child once you are both adults is an essential life transition that millions of adult children go through every year and it doesn't destroy their relationship with their parents. And the vast majority of them find places to live, especially if they've got a good job.

If he is just standing watching you when his younger brother is struggling that is definitely something you can, and should, challenge. You don't even have to make it about you, simply tell him his presence is exacerbating the situation and ask him to go elsewhere.

You and your DH could initiate "date night" and hope he gets uncomfortable enough to leave the room?

Encourage some hobbies that take up more time. Golf and cycling seem to be activities that take men out of the house for a whole day/weekend.

Give him chores to do - "While you're standing there could you empty the dishwasher/hang out the washing?" "If you're home all day can you cut the grass/clean the windows/meal plan, shop and batch cook for the next month?"

You want to make him less comfortable in your company and other spaces more attractive.

I also think if I can manage to run a home and live independently then he can as he's much brighter than me, he doesn't like house rules or authority and struggles with it so I can't imagine he would want to live at home with any restrictions forever. I know I couldn't.

He is not like you. He may be "brighter" than you in some ways but he is still like a child in others. He is still dependent on home, and on you, and he is deeply in denial about it. And as long as you keep giving way to him why would he ever want to leave? It is you and your DH who are being restricted, not DS.

You also need to recognise that for example what he says about parenting standards is nonsense, it is just him trying to make sense of his own anxiety and control you with logic.

You and DH need to start making house rules that suit you and not just DS. Times when he either has to be out (regardless of whether he wants to go out or not) or in his room, and he does not come downstairs. He needs jobs that he needs to do around the house. He needs to respect your privacy and your husband's. A lot of ordinary housemates would not tolerate his behaviour in his home which is also their home. So if he is ever to learn to cope in his own home with a partner or friends (other than living alone) you and your husband need to start teaching him those kinds of boundaries and respect for others, by setting them and insisting on them.

If he found a partner he could easily become controlling and a bully to her too. When his partner did something he didn't like he would tell her - as he told you - that he had High Standards For Wives and maybe (because he is clever about other things) she would believe him and try to live up to his standards (like you do as a mother). Instead of realising how incapable he is.

You must set some authority and rules, whether he likes it or not. Otherwise he will become increasingly dominating and you will have less and less of a life.

I can believe that you all have autism but it affects each of you in different ways.

As a 24 year old adult who holds down a job he should understand boundaries. You say his behaviour is irritating you and really getting you down the status quo can’t continue. You either need to bite the bullet and tell him it’s time to move out or you set house rules which he needs to abide by if he wants to stay. It isn’t ok for him to mock or criticise your parenting of your 9 yr old, it isn’t ok to listen in to your conversations or invade your personal down time once your 9 yr old has gone to bed or dictate when you and your DH can have a date night. Non of these are unreasonable and should be considered the minimum if he wants to stay living at home as part of a family.

Time for a house talk and if he doesn’t feel he can abide by the rules time for him to find his new home

I had a lodger like this. He had ASD. He drove me fucking nuts, and I am aware I invite 'ableist' commentary here but I threw him out for it despite him being clean, tidy and generally good in all other ways. He followed me around everywhere, earwigged on telephone calls, was seemingly fascinated with anything and everything I did, never went out anywhere other than to the supermarket once a week and to the job Centre once a fortnight. Never ever anywhere else.

He literally drove me insane-I felt like I was in an observation tank. When I say literally, I mean it-he has been gone for over a year and I still notice the changes in my own behaviour because of it, looking to see if anyone's around before I talk to a friend about anything private, second guessing before I get out of bed in case someone is about to say something to me about me having got up early/late-there was a running commentary on anything I did.

If your son doesn't have ASD I will run down the street naked-I think he needs to be reassessed.

Your son needs firm, firm boundaries. He doesn't seem to understand what is wrong about any of what he is doing, he needs it explaining in a way he understands and this can take time. I would garner some support from ASD partners or family members groups in order to learn how to deal with him.

I also understand why you won't make him leave, but is there a plan? Is he going to live with you forever? Has he ever had a partner of his own?

You ARE scared of him - you are modifying your own behaviour because you are scared of what he will do if you don't obey him!!!

How dare he tell you it was unfair of you to ask him to go out, what's bloody unfair is him giving you no privacy. Goodness me.

He could go and see a movie, join a book club, volunteer, go to the gym, take night classes, take day classes, get a second job, take up birdwatching and trainspotting, have music lessons at the teacher's house and I would be absolutely INSISTING he took up whatever combination of these things will get him out of the house for two weeknights, one weekend night and at a minimum one FULL day during the week.

He is either neurotypical or abusive, OP. If he is neurotypical then he will need you to give him very clear instructions on your expectations. If he's abusive, well. What on earth does your husband think about all this? Why do the two of you bow to him!?

The puerile behaviour/childishness points toward ASD too.

A 24 yo with no friends to go out with, stands and observes, autism in the family. Very much sounds like he is also autistic but maybe higher functioning so you haven't picked up on it.
I'd support him in getting an assessment and looking at support/social groups for autistic people so he can get out and socialise more which will help the whole family.

The issue really is that he doesn't respect you (or your right to privacy, or personal space). Either this is because he doesn't understand, or it's because he doesn't care.

If he'd pulled the date night stunt on me I'd have told him to toddle off out to the pub then as his plans had fallen through. If he'd remained in the house and come down even ONCE I'd have announced that the next night was date night too now, and the next and the next and the next until he learned how to stay out of the way. I wouldn't have never tried again!

What you want is not unreasonable, OP. His behaviour is though.

he didn't meet the criteria for assessment and was instead diagnosed with anxiety

I was diagnosed with anxiety as a teenager. Then depression. Then OCD, insomnia, and an eating disorder. I had three different types of therapy, tried anti-depressants - nothing worked. I got my autism and ADHD diagnoses in 2021 and, looking back, it's staggering that nobody realised before I reached the age of 31.

P.S. I feel like it's always me banging this drum on threads about autism but can people please stop saying "high functioning"? It's othering, it implies that autistic people with higher support need are "low functioning", and it minimises that person's experience. Speaking for myself, people have referred to me as high functioning when, in actual fact, I'm masking to high heaven and sacrificing my comfort for the comfort of other people. My ability to "function" also varies enormously by task/situation/environment.

My stepson does the same thing when I'm on the phone, it's infuriating. I think people (particularly young lads) think they're really funny sometimes, when they're just not.

Just bloody tell him. "I don't like when you listen to my conversations and when you stand around watching me, so please stop that now"

Then repeat that to him every single time he shows up to do it.

Are you sure? That is odd behaviour I think.

I have friends with similar aged offspring at home. They appear in the kitchen, make food, have a chat and disappear back to their room again. My ND 22 year old who lives at home wouldn't do what your DS is doing.

If you are adamant he is not ND, then he needs a kick up the bum to grow up and learn some manners

He sounds ND and very controlling. If it damages your relationship to have some boundaries then so be it. He can find somewhere else to live. You can't be made to feel uncomfortable and on edge like this in your own home.