To ask ds to go out more

[treadingcarefree]

Ds 24 is always in and always observing me. If I'm on the phone he'll stand around listening and laughing, commenting on my conversation.

Ds9 has autism and it's been the summer holidays and he can be very hard to manage when he has a meltdown and ds will stand and watch and observe, if he's in the kitchen for example and I'm trying to manage ds he'll pop his head out to watch and observe.
I constantly feel analysed as he stands watching what's going on.
Ds work compressed hours so is home 4 days a week under my feet watching what I do. It's like having a helicopter constantly hovering in the room.
I have asked him if he can go out occasionally instead of spending 4 solid days at home, he's here every evening too but he just says I've got no plans or nowhere to go.
He's driving me nuts being around, I'd like some privacy.
Ds9 is back to school today and I could really do with some time to myself after the 6 weeks holiday to unwind but he's sitting beside me as usual and I don't feel I can even make a phone call to chat with a friend.
It feels so suffocating.

Yes, this.
And I'm the last person to make excuses for young men.

So what do I do then tell him to move out and probably never see him again or just tolerate it for a future relationship with him.
He has very high standards when it comes to parenting and often remarks on how terrible other parents are and how he would never visit if they were his so I try to do my best and I have, it's just got too much now.
His dad asked him to go out one night so we could have very rare and needed date night, and he reluctantly agreed but then came down saying he'd go out and just sat there before saying his plans had fallen through so dh said could he go upstairs then as he cooked a lovely meal and we had some wine but ds was up and down like a yo-yo so we couldn't relax and then a few days later he said he had thought it was a bit unfair to be asked to go out when he had nowhere to go then spent the next month making sarcastic comments like don't worry I'm only getting a drink I'll be out the way soon, so we never asked again.

No he's not mocking, he's just there so he's hearing and joining in the conversation (which he can only hear one side of)

I’d go into my room and close the door if I wanted a conversation. That’s very rude to listen in and laugh

It does sound like he is perhaps autistic too. It’s not typical behaviour.
Why not broach him moving out. He’s 24 and working.

I don’t think you should ask him to leave but I do think you should have an honest conversation with him that he needs to get more of a life. You need to set boundaries with him and if he makes passive aggressive sarcastic comments, just ignore him.

There's ways of having difficult discussions like your kids moving out.

Instead of asking him to go, ask what his future plans are where does he see himself in 5, 10 years time? It's not WHAT you say, it's the manner in which you say it.

As another autism parent - he definitely sounds neurodiverse.

You sound scared of him. It's completely normal as an adult to move out of home - can you look at it as your responsibility as a parent to help him move on in life?

Is it that you are concerned on a deep level that he wouldn't cope on his own? In which case I wonder if you do think he might be neurodiverse but aren't wanting to really admit it ?

You need to have boundaries OP _ you are entitled to your time and space and you have to accept when you are assertive and have boundaries other people might not like it.

He isn't a child now, you don't have to consatantly consider his feelings.

Has he any interest in dating? Maybe encourage him to join a dating site. I think if he finds someone he likes things might change.
Or even one of those meet up sites for hiking or whatever he has an interest in

Why didn't you go out for your date? You've got a built in babysitter.

Have you told him that it is rude to listen to other people's phone calls and he needs to stop doing it?

He's a grown man. If he goes no contact and sulks because you ask him to move out so you can have a life, then he's a selfish bastard with very low standards about how to treat his parents. Honestly.

It sounds like you are describing a 5 year old tbh so I think you need to consider whether he really has additional needs - and how you can get him on a path to independent living.

They should not have to.

Can your you get son be left with him? It sounds like you have a perfect built in babysitter so you can get out of the house without either of them and get a break.

I bet if you started doing that he'd find things to do.

It seems to be odd behaviour that a 24 year old has no awareness that his parents would like some privacy. It's also odd that he wants to be so involved. Does he have his own bedroom? Does he have a TV in there for example?

I think because he has a younger brother, he joins the family as a 4 which I get as he is family but he's just sat watching especially when were trying to manage ds9 and it feels like we have an audience waiting to see how we respond to sons behaviour all the time.

He is most likely ND himself.

ND can make you clingy (like him) or the opposite like me (and possibly you).

I know what it feels like to need your space but this is his home and you cannot tell him to go out more, any more than he can tell you to go out more.

He works long hours over 4 days and so it’s only 3 days where you have to put up with him being around.

In my home everywhere is communal, apart from the bedrooms which is our own private space.
If I want privacy or time by myself then I go to my room.

Could you get a TV in your bedroom and spend the evening in there?

You need to get some hobbies that take you out of the home.
Could you do an evening walk or go to the gym/swimming for an hour.

You’re feeling suffocated and so you need to find ways to get away without telling him to leave his own home.

He sounds so autistic, how haven't you noticed? He has "high standards"for parenting, does he? His boundaries are all over the place. He has no right to join your conversations, it is very rude of him to listen in, why doesn't he know that? Why are you and your DH asking him to be in his room to give you privacy and not telling him?

Why do you think you have to meet his standards instead of him having to meet yours?

And why on earth are you giving way to his passive aggressive sniping at you?

I bet he sounds so logical that you can't see how unreasonable he is.

I think the last thing any young woman needs is a date with someone who behaves like this. He needs to somehow sort his issues out before he joins the dating pool.
And yes, I know that's harsh.

His social skills sound absolutely non-existent. This isn’t normal behaviour in a 24-year-old man, OP.

Why is being a family of 4 an issue?

If my sibling was having a meltdown I would probably watch too as some sort of misplaced support.

I’d find it quite rude if an adult saw what was going on but completely ignored it and just went about their day.

Is your DH his dad?

Have you told him how annoying and intrusive it is?

Have you told him to Go Away? (I would)

Has he friends/hobbies?

But if he was getting involved you'd not like that either. Maybe he doesn't know how to react when this happens.

If his ‘parenting standards’ are so high, can you leave him in charge of DS2 for a few hours a week and go out for a walk yourself, or to cinema or window shop, or a class?