To ask ds to go out more

[treadingcarefree]

Ds 24 is always in and always observing me. If I'm on the phone he'll stand around listening and laughing, commenting on my conversation.

Ds9 has autism and it's been the summer holidays and he can be very hard to manage when he has a meltdown and ds will stand and watch and observe, if he's in the kitchen for example and I'm trying to manage ds he'll pop his head out to watch and observe.
I constantly feel analysed as he stands watching what's going on.
Ds work compressed hours so is home 4 days a week under my feet watching what I do. It's like having a helicopter constantly hovering in the room.
I have asked him if he can go out occasionally instead of spending 4 solid days at home, he's here every evening too but he just says I've got no plans or nowhere to go.
He's driving me nuts being around, I'd like some privacy.
Ds9 is back to school today and I could really do with some time to myself after the 6 weeks holiday to unwind but he's sitting beside me as usual and I don't feel I can even make a phone call to chat with a friend.
It feels so suffocating.

I have a 17 year old boy and not only would he instinctively know not to behave like this, I would have no problem telling him to back off, keep his opinions to himself, give me some privacy, etc. He does (rather sweetly) come to his younger sisters defence if he feels my approach is off and I have on occasion agreed with him and changed my approach. I am always open to constructive comment or observations. But I have also left him in no doubt that I am the parent and that it is my household to manage, not his.

I don't get why you don't tell him to go away or walk away yourself when he starts laughing and commenting on your phone conversation. I'm with PP, it does sound like you are a bit scared of him.

Maybe stupid question, but did it escalate during lockdown or was he like this before?

Crikey - that's me screwed

😂😂

He definitely doesn't sound NT. Also this:

So what do I do then tell him to move out and probably never see him again or just tolerate it for a future relationship with him.

Seems incredibly extreme, given that your relationship has been good enough up until now for him to still be living at home. There's no way on earth it should deteriorate to never seeing him again just because of a very normal process of moving out in his mid-20s. I think things have got a bit warped there one way or another and however cagey he may be, you need to start addressing these things and not tolerating them in this state of fear/avoidance/catastrophising.

If he has high expectations on parentin but no boundaries, I wonder what he will be like with a future girlfriend/boyfriend.

If he is implying your relationship wouldn’t recover if you asked him to move out makes me think he is controlling you in some way. The same with him watching you parenting your younger child and listening to your conversations and not giving your and your DH any space. He should be able to get over the disappointment/sadness of parents asking him to move out. It’s the normal trajectory of growing up and starting his own life. He might even find he builds more relationships because he won’t be so dependant on you. You really need to start the conversation with him. You also need to insist on your privacy on calls and parenting your other child. I’d just tell him to leave the room and I’m not sure why you aren’t doing this.

I don't know any child who behaves like this past primary school age! Listening in on phone calls and following his parents around not being able to leave them alone is something I used to do around aged 7 or 8 until my mum would tell me to bugger off!

At the age of 24 it's just seriously odd. Even more odd is the fact that OP doesn't seem to be just be able to tell him and seems to be tiptoeing round him.

Also, if my child told me about their "high standards" for parenting, I would piss myself laughing. I would not be then trying to "do my best" to reach them which is what OP has said she's doing 😐

It's very strange behaviour. Why is he watching you all the time if he's WFH? Doesn't he work in his room?

If he is implying your relationship wouldn’t recover if you asked him to move out makes me think he is controlling you in some way. The same with him watching you parenting your younger child and listening to your conversations and not giving your and your DH any space.

This. He sounds like a controlling partner. Not your child.

So you get some space on the days he does the compressed hours? They must be quite long days.

His behaviour is not typical for an adult. He’s acting like a junior age child.
At 24 it’s perfectly normal to broach what next without a big fall out. Is he saving? Could he move in a shared house.

I think he works out of house 4 long days then has 4 days off where he gives Op no space.

Have you told him to stop?

Like everything else he’s doing, it’s rude behaviour. That’s the issue, to a far greater degree than him not going out. Have you directly addressed this?

My oldest DC is a quarter of this man's age and I'd have no trouble telling them that they are being rude and they need to go find something else to do if they pulled that behaviour on me.

Is your DH also scared of him?

I have to admit my first thought was that he also has autism. I wouldn't normally think that straight away, but I have a son that age and it seems very unusual behaviour. He doesn't live with me but I do have a teenager who would never hang around me in this way. If he did do this, if I was on the phone for instance, I would have no problem in telling him to go away! I get the impression you feel you can't do that as your son doesn't understand social boundaries in the same way and would therefore be upset.

Well yes, but the son's working days shouldn't be seen as respite from his bizarre and rude behaviour. This is her home and while we all have things that irritate each other, he both sounds unbearable AND is always around in the very sizeable chunks of time he's off. I couldn't put up with an evening of this nonsense, let alone 4 days on the trot. The kinder part of me would worry greatly about him because it all bodes very ill for his ability to form healthy and fun relationships with friends and lovers who would be even less inclined to tolerate it than a loving parent..

This is not normal behaviour for a young adult or even a teen

You need to start making it uncomfortable for him to live their so that he wants to move out. I bet you still do all the family chores you used to.

Charge room and board
Stop doing his laundry
Stop cooking for him and get a small fridge/freezer he can keep his own food in
Hand him a cleaning rota for when it's his turn to clean the bathroom and kitchen or whatever
Spend evenings with him looking on RightMove and possibly attend viewings with him if you have to to make him go.

Have a conversation with him about it beforehand, that he is an adult now and as such will not be treated like a child but another adult living in the house. That he isn't being kicked out of the family unit but his next stage in life is calling and it's essential he learns the skills and goes it alone and that he should be in his own place by January 2025 to start this new stage.

Another vote for the fact you and older DS both sound like you have significant traits of autism whether you have enough for a full diagnosis or not. This level of issues with communication between you all and not following social queues or addressing it is not really typical. As I'm sure you know autism is hereditary and is far more common for a parent or siblings to have it if another family member does and ofcourse nobody realises those less severe traits are autism as that's the way they've always been.

As a neurodivergent woman myself, with two neurodivergent DC, I thought exactly the same. OP and both her boys sound ND.

OP, when someone asked if he could be ND, you answered that he goes out to work. Lots of autistic people work, have friends, families, social lives etc. It really does depend on the level of functioning and ability to mask.

You say he’s not mocking you on the phone calls. Nor does it sound as if he’s mocking his younger brother during meltdowns. He sounds clueless and unaware rather than spiteful.

The situation re date night and being told to stay away also screams neurodivergence to me. Theres something called RSD which is common with ND folk. It’s extreme sensitivity to being rejected/feeling rejected. He sounds as if he has no idea why it would be inappropriate to keep barging into a romantic meal and felt pushed out in his own home. That’s not a normal reaction and really does suggest neurodivergence.

Also worth noting that lots of ND can appear controlling - it’s a way of coping, reducing the unpredictability of the world which is really hard for many ND folk. I’m not suggesting it should be just accepted or ignored, but there’s not a malicious motive behind this type of behaviour.

I understand that you’re scared of losing him if you tell him to move out. If you think he’s capable, and you think it’s in yours and his best interests, it’s something you could work towards. However it would be helpful to structure it as something positive for him, rather than “you’re in my space and we don’t want you here.” You could maybe agree that he comes home on X days so you both know where you stand. However, I have to ask whether he has the skills to move out and live independently? I really do think you need to be brutally honest with yourself here.

I know you should be able to just say to your child “don’t you think it’s time you found your own place?” - but my comments here are on the basis of him being ND. He really, really does sound it.

Ds9 is back to school today and I could really do with some time to myself after the 6 weeks holiday to unwind but he's sitting beside me as usual and I don't feel I can even make a phone call to chat with a friend.

Why is your 24 year old son sat next to you on a Monday morning??? Why is he not at work?! Why can't you tell him to fuck bugger off??? Why can't you go out??? Why are you scared of just being blunt with him?!

Seriously, there has got to be some huge drip feed here because this is absolutely not normal...

I find his behaviour very manipulative and controlling and this statement is just ridiculous. "He has very high standards when it comes to parenting and often remarks on how terrible other parents are and how he would never visit if they were his"

You need to start setting boundaries and start the conversation about his future plans. It doesn't have to be move out next week but more talk about his plans and maybe nudge the conversation towards planning for moving out. If he still refuses to take the hint continues to the use the threat of never seeing you again. Then you need to be firm and call his bluff. Sorry but I wouldn't continue to live like that and build some much resentment and exhaustion because he threatens to never see me again. Let's see how easy he finds it to live independently without any support. I find his behaviour very controlling and arrogant. You already have your hands full with your younger son and your older son is just piling on the stress and pressure.

Is this what he is going to do to his future partner? Keep her controlled and contained in a relationship she is unhappy with and hates?

Agreed. United front is needed here. I have a DS24, recently moved out. He would not have dreamed of listening in on my conversations or commenting on our parenting of his younger DB. He was either out in the evenings or on the PS in his room, but we usually ate together.

If we needed privacy we could say we need X space to ourselves, and he would have been fine. His attitude is very strange, and it needs to be challenged.

You need to be much firmer about him moving out - in a year or two, if not now. It isn’t your job to find him somewhere - it’s his.

And the sarcastic comments need to stop. For example, I sometimes have evening zoom meetings, 8-9 pm in the kitchen diner. There’s no problem here with folks knowing they need to get what they want in terms of snacks and drinks before I start, and not reappear until I’m finished.

I thought ND too. My 19 year old son has ASD and ADHD. His ASD is high functioning but he has had to "learn" some social cues that didn't come naturally. One of those is that he didn't have much regard for my (or his dad or sister's) privacy and space, despite being very defensive of his own. We've had to be quite firm with him at times, to the extent that sometimes he is told "go away and give us some peace".

I have also had conversations about his future plans but he's very cagey and likes to keep his business to himself. This is a quote from one of your posts which sounds very like my son!

What does he do when you're at work? Is he hovering waiting for you when you get home? I do think you need to be blunt/firm with him. "Where am I supposed to go?". "No idea, you're an adult, find somewhere." Why are you worried about upsetting him? There needs to be some give and take.

Do you get any time alone at home when he's at work and you aren't? If so that's a bit of respite!