To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

Very simply all women competing in high-level sport are going to need a DNA test.

It’s a shame for those with DSDs raised as girls who will no longer be able to compete due to their XY chromosomes.

I don’t see much other option though. How can you sensibly run events with male competitors.

This has been an issue for several years now, the lack of a resolution is because each sport / country has their own rules and the IOC doesn’t enforce a specific standard of testing across all sports.

This is not a transgender identity question - as with Caster Semenya, these competitors have probably lived their whole lives thinking they are female.

I agree that this recent issue is not about trans, which I think is mostly, from what i can see, agreed upon in mainstream thought that trans women should not compete against women, but with DSD it is more complex and I have a lot of sympathy for those caught up in it. I think however, if we now have the tech to easily test for male or female DNA that really should be it. Hopefully as time goes on, babies born with DSD can be identified immediately so they will always know where they stand.

I must say I'm very anti boxing and always have been and I've never been comfortable that women even wanted to take it up because of the extra physical risks for females.
I made myself look at the footage of the Khelif fight to see what people were talking about. I couldn't watch it all because it was just horrific. As people say it was watching a man punching a woman. Really really upsetting. How was that ever allowed to happen in the name of sport?
I agree with pp about the DNA test. Surely that has got to be the way forward.

So much of the media noise around this has confused trans athletes with intersex ones and tabloid coverage is just stoking it. Khelif and other athletes such as Barbara Banda from Zambia were assigned female gender at birth and brought up as girls. They aren't trans gender.

Some of the social media hate for Khelif is shocking.

But once the reality is known, and it is a biological reality - chromosomes can't be ambiguous - then the only responsible thing to do is to accept that despite being raised as female, you have male advantage and therefore can't play in women's sports.

Agreed. That poor athlete, people as usual jump in with two feet without actually understanding what the athlete is, she is not trans she has a complex rare medical disorder. Disorder of sex development, read up on it and stop calling this woman trans she is not!!

Frankly, transgender or DSD doesn’t matter.

XY should not compete against XX.

(To be fair, I haven’t seen anyone say that the boxers are transgender. All reports have either said too much testosterone or DSD)

That’s the bottom line.

The issue is unscrupulous coaches seeking out people with DSDs specifically to cheat.

It mainly happens in countries where these things aren't identified soon after birth, rather than in places with modern healthcare.

Not only that, but if you know someone has a DSD (because you went looking for them), and you keep it quiet, are you getting them any DSD specific healthcare they need? It seems hugely damaging.

Cheek swab tests used to be the standard - I don't know why they were dropped, but if we're prepared to force athletes to wee into a cup in front of witnesses to prevent doping, then identifying someone's sex with a cheek swab is the tiniest thing we can do to protect women's sport, and lives (because make no mistake - a woman boxing against a man is putting her life at serious risk)

Sex is determined in three ways: chromosomes, hormones, sex organs.

Normally, all three align to determine ones sex.

In DSD, there is a misalignment between the three. This misalignment defers for each person with the diagnosis. Some will have the XY chromosome AND the hormonal profile of a man, but sex organs looking more like females. Others though will have the XY chromosome AND the female hormonal profile.

My understanding is that they were tested for their hormonal profile and the result was more of female than male at this time and that's why they were allowed to compete.

The test results from the discredited IBL have never been validated or published. They refuse to even say who performed them or what the tests actually were. At the moment there is no evidence this poor athlete is male, female, intersex or an alien. This whole hate campaign is shocking and disgusting. She's had death threats. She had has done nothing wrong.

This whole mess needs sorting by the boxing and Olympic authorities .

I truly believe that if she is biologically male she shouldn't be fighting females but until there is measured testing and evidence this whole media circus, and public figures (I am looking at you JK) need to butt out and stop the awful comments about this poor Algerian athlete. The debate needs to be rational and fact based.

No one is ‘assigned’ a gender at birth. Your sex is noted, and in rare cases of DSD there have been mistakes (and horrifyingly, sometimes intentionally) in how that baby’s sex was documented. We know they’re not transgender, but they’re still male and very evidently gone through male puberty. They shouldn’t be in female sport.

(To be fair, I haven’t seen anyone say that the boxers are transgender. All reports have either said too much testosterone or DSD)
That's all I have seen. JK Rowling for one refusing to calling her female and continually referring to her as male.

It's a lot more complex than that

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

When a person has a Y chromosome it’s very simple. They’re male. They shouldn’t be in female sport. I’ve read about DSD, I have seen TRAs use those with sex differentials wrongly and offensively as a ‘gotcha’ for years. I absolutely have sympathy and cannot begin how horrifying it is to start male puberty when you’ve been raised female throughout your childhood. But the line is very simple, you cannot put women at risk because you have a medical condition that was ignored or mistreated as a baby.

people with DSD are either male or female

there is no mysterious third sex

the IOC are misogynistic cunts

People are being incredibly cruel about the "male" competitor. This isn't a man who has decided to pretend to be a woman so he can win easier or hit women. This is a woman, assigned female at birth, raised as a girl, with all the disadvantages of being a woman in our society. Who has been found to have a genetic condition that corrupts her entire identity. People deliberately calling her "him" and a "man" and comparing her to domestic abusers are quite frankly, vile, uneducated bullies.

She has XY chromosomes, she also doesn't have the same advantages as a man becuase of her genetic condition, she has some physical advantages but not all. She can't compete against men becuase of her genetic disadvantages to them. She can't compete against women because of her genetic advantages to them. It is very unfortunate and she is not a villain.

Thank you for been able to articulate so much better than me. This has become a toxic noise and the vast majority of commentators including those who should know better are conflating this specific case with wider issues around trans gender involvement in sports

The athletes at the heart of this were labelled as women at birth and brought up as women. I can't imagine Algeria or Zambia were easy places to raise an intersex child. They don't deserve the vitriol poured on them. And people like JK Rowling shouldn't use them stoke the fire.

The athletes have failed to be classified as women previously and they and their coaching teams all know that they are male. They have chosen to enter women’s competitions because the IOC has less strict rules.

It’s like classifying age by the number of birthdays you’ve had and saying someone born on the 29th February is technically 5 and can enter a children’s competition. You would hope that person had the integrity not to.

I have not seen one reputable source actually clarifying what the issue is. All I have seen is that one agency (Russian which obviously is known for fact based information....) allegedly confirmed xy chromosomes. I haven't seen this confirmed. As other posters have noted, sex is based on an alignment of chromosomes, hormones and sex organs so even if she does have xy chromosomes I find it astounding that people think it's ok to unequivocally state she is therefore a man. The lack of respect and understanding for a human being with a very complex medical condition and lived experience of being a woman is shocking. I can't imagine how she is feeling right now.

Some of the social media hate for Khelif is shocking.

I have some sympathy for Khelif's situation- legally a female but likely having found out at some point she is genetically male. It can't be easy in Algeria.

However Khalif is 25, likely never had a period. Deprived upbringing or not, by your late teens you'd be wondering if you have a health issue. Your parents would be asking questions. Being involved in international sports a some point Khalif must have had at least conversations with doctors, if not an ultrasound.

My point is that Khalif must have been aware for a while that she is genetically male and has an advantage that female boxers cannot overcome. Following that she decided to keep on fighting against females knowing it's not a fair fight and she can cause harm. That's on her.

That's where people's censure comes from. Most decent people are deeply repulsed by the images of a man punching a woman as hard as he can. However in the current climate of VAWG I am aware some men do not see a problem with this (Carini is a wimp, Michael Phelps' feet, TERFs).

Clear IOC regulations that do not ignore complexity and don't prioritise social justice over fair play and safety would avoid this situation. An open category and xx category would protect DSD athletes' dignity and be inclusive of all. It's odious that private medical details are being discussed because we can all see the unfairness and obfuscation. 100% the IOC's fault.

@GiddyMember they are men.
Let’s not forget all the women of colour who have lost prizes, sponsorship, a route out of poverty through sport, and in some cases have sustained serious injuries because of this obsession.

Indeed

You clearly know more about it then medical professionals studying the condition so