To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

He wasn’t born female. He is male, we know he is male, so the best possible estimation is that he was mistakenly thought to be female at birth, but it was a mistake, like Caster Semenya, who is also a man.

If anything, these last pages may well have solidified the views around language for those reading along.

The continued emotional pleas to use ‘preferred’ pronouns and the vilification and demonisation of posters who point out the material reality, based on science, has been very clear. The absolute confusion around the discussion is also stark. The amount of misinformation that has been spread by people who have insisted that these male athletes are ‘female’ because they were ‘brought up as females’ (according to them with no evidence) and therefore this actually simply decision is now made complicated because a male person’s emotions have to be prioritised above all the female athletes that their inclusion impacts on. Because of the words, ‘woman’ and ‘female’ keep being insisted to be used. When ‘female’ is a very high likelihood of being a false scientific categorisation. It is likely to be only an ‘honorific’.

So, here we are. People demonising those attempting to communicate clearly to accept their philosophical belief. Rather than discussing the issue clearly and rationally.

The lesson though is, just repeating a false fact, that a male with a DSD that only occurs in male people is a ‘female’ does not change the material reality. And rules around sport and protecting female sports categories cannot be obscured by falsity in this way.

That means that female people are put in danger (as we have just seen) and are harmed. Through direct discrimination in fact. The very thing that the protected category was supposed to eliminate.

Yes, but when anyone points out that trans identifying men were born male, trans activists are quick to point out it doesn’t matter or it was a mistake.

Basically the rules and logic are “whatever it takes for men to do what they want”.

That was really my point 😊

This is an interesting point. Indeed.

A reminder that all of this could have been avoided if the IOC still did cheek swab tests for sex. I really hope that they start doing them again because this situation is not fair on anyone. However, that would mean that the IOC need to find some integrity regarding this issue rather than continuing with their current mendacious approach.

I'm not sure if this has been posted on this thread, but I'll post it here just in case it hasn't.

https://x.com/Slatzism/status/1819427537740558848

She is not a man.

Yes, I was agreeing with you.

It doesn’t matter what sex people thought this man was as a baby, or growing up, or even 12 months ago. It doesn’t matter how he sees himself. All that matters is he is male, with male advantage and should not eligible for the women’s category, unless you’re the IOC who hates women.

More screenshots.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/02/lin-yu-ting-imane-khelif-olympics-boxing-paris-ioc/
'A beaten woman weeping, viewers in uproar, an Olympics engulfed by rancour – just another day at boxing

Gender scandal assuming dimensions IOC can no longer control, with impression governing body has abandoned its duty of care.'

Archive version. https://archive.ph/gMCOS

The IOC have behaved abysmally.

That neither boxer proceeded to CAS so that it could be demonstrated once and for all that they were female says it all. No one can be blamed for assuming from their reluctance that they know full well that a sex test would prove that they are male.

The IOC is a corrupt racket. They've been fucking over female athletes for years.

This wouldn't be allowed in men's sport. Journalists would do their job for a start.

Remember how many tests Pistorius was put through before he could even be considered to be allowed to race outside of the ParaOlympics. The tests went on forever because they were so worried about unfairness to the able bodied men.

For women's sport though apparently anyone can just rock up with a passport that says F.

What still surprises me is that this is the very first time the IOC’s policy for devolving the responsibility for the policy around male inclusion in the female sports category has been put under pressure. And the IOC has chucked the international sporting federation under the proverbial bus. The federation that bravely created a policy that was different to the IOC but similar to the other major federations such as WA, FINA, UIC, WR, so not in any way an outlier.

And yet the IOC has undermined the IBA’s authority about something so important as female athlete’s safety. Again, the IBA policy was absolutely in line with other major sporting organizations. Including World Rugby FFS!

But the IOC has still undermined this. It makes me wonder what the other sporting federations are thinking at this time. It is a remarkable situation. The IOC have tried to maintain that they are the good guys with their policy. The only conclusion to be drawn from that; is that the sporting federations who protected female sports are to be considered unsupportable in the eyes of the IOC.

And there are many posters on this thread who seem to agree with the IOC.

What a fucked up mess. What a fucked up future to female sports and the female athletes who compete in this sports.

This thread has shown many people who are simply willing to allow female people to be harmed to allow some male people to feel better. plus ca change.

A quick google search shows that she is biologically a woman. The IBA have been corrupt for years and are now throwing their toys out of the pram because the olympics have banned them from regulating the matches.

They have never confirmed what they were testing for and they never shared the results with the participants.

it was a skills mismatch between the two boxers nothing more. Khelif isn’t even the best woman boxer out there and has lost to several other women.

The bigger discussion now is her safety. She is from a country where being trans is illegal. She will be sent home to persecution and most likely nothing that she says or does will convince people otherwise.

Carini should be ashamed of how she acted and about the danger she has now put Khelif in.

she is persecuting someone on the basis that they don’t look feminine and we’re better than her.

FFS go back and read this fucking thread.

My point was merely that it's not straightforward to define biological sex and what you are saying to me is that it IS straightforward (mostly) but with a few outliers and that until issues arise in sport with those outliers we shouldn't discuss them?

Time and time again I've seen posters on this thread say the definitive test should be whether someone has XX or XY chromosomes. I have therefore pointed out that it is possible for someone to have XY chromosomes and present female with no male testosterone advantage, XX chromosomes and be to all intents and purposes male, XY Chromosomes and birth a child etc.

It's not enough to say 'well this hasn't become a problem yet so we will cross that bridge if it arises' seeing as we clearly need robust, universally agreed upon tests to decide whether athletes can compete.

I'm not actually arguing that these individuals should be allowed to compete. I can't possibly make that decision without seeing the evidence that noone is allowed to see. I'm flabbergasted that so many people on this thread seem to be so sure.

The IOC could sort this out very easily and restore confidence in female sport.

Funnily enough they don't seem keen to do that.

This is a deliberate choice.

A deliberate policy of misogyny and corruption.

He is male. He has XY chromosomes, confirmed by the boxing test, and has been virilised by male puberty. I’d like to know why anyone thinks it’s ok for a man to be allowed to punch a woman at the Olympics.

Khelif isn’t even the best woman boxer out there and has lost to several other women.

He's lost to several women because he's a very low ranking male boxer against very high ranking female ones. Elite women can beat shit men; that's not new, not disputed and doesn't disprove the male advantage. He ranks far lower in his sex class than elite women who beat him rank in theirs.

Prioritising inclusivity over safety and fairness sooner or later will kill a woman and we'll all have ringside seat.

Not only are women being put in danger in sports such as boxing they are also losing out on medals.
Its really important to remember that these women train for years to reach the Olympics, the pinnacle of their career, for it only to be dashed by XY people.

Just picked this up on another thread
Not a single XX women won a medal in the 2016 Rio Olympics womens 800m.

I believe the categories should be renamed as
XX and XY.

I hope both boxers have good people around them to keep them safe, because whatever way this lands there are 2 people who are currently facing the wrath of a large number of people round the world. That's got to be damaging to the psyche.

Taken from Twitter:

I certainly hope they are safe and well, unlike the women they attacked, but they could avoid this by not competing against women and knowingly putting them in excessive danger beyond a fair fight.

So, should female sports categories include those people
who are male (by the scientific definition) with virilisation or not?

You declare that it is not simple. Yes. It is. The very same studies showing males who have gone through male puberty have physical advantages over female people are directly applicable here.

Those papers and studies have reviewed and discussed on MN and beyond for years.

If you think they are not applicable, you need to articulate why.

This constant push on language should really concern any feminist thinker. The determination that some posters showed to vilify those who used language they viewed as ‘unkind’ and ‘mean’ and ‘disrespectful’ was surprising. I still cannot believe that posters continued to defy science and insist in demonising people saying these athletes are male. When they are male. They have been tested and declared not eligible for the female sports category.

But still the denial they were male is incredible to see.

So; do you believe that the female sports categories should include any male person who has gone through male puberty? Yes ? Or no?

It really is that simple.