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To be glad that #IStandWithAngelaCarini is trending no.1 in the UK on X (Twitter)

1000 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 01/08/2024 16:11

Angela Carini is the incredibly brave Italian boxer who had her Olympic dream shattered in less than a minute after being punched in the face by Imane Khelif, a male competitor who was disqualified from the women’s World Championships last year because his testosterone levels were too high.
Everyone should be saying her name. Over and over and over again.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 17:11

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Gosh, women being beaten up by males in sport BORES you?

I would never admit something so disgraceful about myself

BMW6 · 01/08/2024 17:12

Actually I think this is going to open people's eyes to the reality of this TWAW dystopian nightmare.

(Yes I know these 2 boxers aren't TW, but they are still just more men trying to pass as women to the detriment of actual women)

Tregaronableist · 01/08/2024 17:12

Flossyts · 01/08/2024 16:26

I hate how this gets called out as being anti trans. I am not anti trans. I am against a woman being hit in the face by someone with all the genetic advantages of being male.
dress how you like, be who you want as long as this doesn’t unfairly or unsafely impact someone else.

Great post, I entirely agree with you.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2024 17:12

For readers who want to know what the IOC said when they were asked about this the other day, this is the IOC dismissive response:

https://x.com/treesey/status/1818672682038104253

Here is a condensed version:

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1818234505833877736

So the ever reliable  @seaningle asked the key question at the  @iocmedia prezzer just now, about the two male boxers in the female competition. Here are some comments on the answer from Mark Adams, for the IOC...

Adams said that the two boxers in question were designated as female on their passports.

But this - 'passport sex' - is not the right criterion for assessing male advantage (and male risk) in sport. As CAS correctly determined in 2019: "It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that insuperable advantage, and which do not."

Adams' second tack was to say that the boxers had competed as female previously. This is, of course, irrelevant to the justice of their eligibility now. If they have competed unfairly and unsafely in the past, all the more reason to prevent further harm and unfairness.

his third argument was that this is all 'incredibly complex'. But Sean's question indicated why this isn't true. Going through male puberty gives male advantage, and male advantage must be excluded from female sport

and the fourth argument was linked to this. Adams questioned - with a straight face - whether male puberty gave an clear advantage in boxing. All this, as a support for a 'sport by sport' approach. Indeed Adams called for a 'discipline by discipline' approach

It's difficult to know what to say about this, except that the IOC appears to be intellectually and morally corrupt. All four arguments are hopeless. And this corruption amounts to the IOC licencing men punching women as sport.

So all us women and girls out there, it is now official as per IOC that if someone has an F in their passport, they are female. And if a male person has done something once before and got away with it, then that sets it as a precedence for that male person to continue on. And that if it is all a bit too hard, prioritising the needs of female people should be just dropped.

x.com

https://x.com/treesey/status/1818672682038104253

LadyGrinningSoul8517 · 01/08/2024 17:13

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LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 01/08/2024 17:14

#IStandWithAngelaCarini

Needs to be on a t-shirt; I would wear it.

How the hell did we get here? Men do not belong in women's sports. If they are unable to compete against their own sex then so be it. Not a woman's place to budge up for them.

I feel so, so sorry for these women who have had their one shot at Olympic success dashed. Disgusting.

LordPercyPercy · 01/08/2024 17:14

Here's the view from the other side of the debate,

A reddit post from r/trans. Lol.

WarriorN · 01/08/2024 17:15

Neither of these athletes are trans.

They're men making use of loopholes to cheat.

TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 17:15

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What the hell are you on about. This individual has never claimed to be trans

LordPercyPercy · 01/08/2024 17:15

And transphobic responses like this are left to stand like they're absolutely reasonable and not a form of hate speech

What does a man with DSD have to do with the trans issue?

PurpleSparkledPixie · 01/08/2024 17:16

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It is not transphobic to call a man a man. The IBA genetically tested him and he showed up as XY, which is male. Humans cannot change sex. It's impossible.

BreadInCaptivity · 01/08/2024 17:16

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You are bored by a man hitting a woman....wow.

I think your moral compass is pointing at your misogyny.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/08/2024 17:17

I accidentally voted YABU when I meant YANBU and now I can't change it.

So the number of people who think YABU is less than 3%.

hepsitemiz · 01/08/2024 17:17

pinkducky · 01/08/2024 16:47

I admit I have some sympathy for these two biologically male Olympians. As far as I've read, they were believed to be female from birth (they may well not have a penis in answer to another pp) and have always competed within female leagues. To me, it's quite different to a man who was born a man, fought mediocrely against men, and then decided to "become" a female in order to box in the olympics.

Despite that, I accept that they have biological advantages over the women and it isn't fair that they compete.

I think a lot of the reporting on this has been so vague that many believe these Olympians are trans.

I did not know this, ducky. It certainly changes the narrative just a little. I can certainly feel sorry for anyone born with ambiguous genitalia and brought up as the wrong sex.

However, these men should have done the honourable thing once their real sex was confirmed. They should have refrained from punching women in their pursuit of Olympic glory. That remains most people's position, I am sure!

yourhairiswinterfire · 01/08/2024 17:17

Still, I find it hilarious watching you all perform exactly like I expect you to.
Hence why I'm still here, for the entertainment 🍿

Women's reactions to male violence against women becoming an Olympic sport is entertainment to you?

Wow. And you have the nerve to throw around insults and call others 'spiteful' and 'phobes'.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2024 17:18

For any reader who believes that any female person can have testosterone in the 'male range' please look at this chart.

Plus

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

and

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).

plus with handy charts in the tweet

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

To be glad that #IStandWithAngelaCarini is trending no.1 in the UK on X (Twitter)
OlympicWomen · 01/08/2024 17:18

WarriorN · 01/08/2024 17:15

Neither of these athletes are trans.

They're men making use of loopholes to cheat.

This 💯. I have no idea why posters keep saying it's about transphobia.

londonmummy1966 · 01/08/2024 17:18

OlympicWomen · 01/08/2024 17:03

We are The Monstrous Regiment!

I suspect that Knox would stand with Angela were he still around....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/08/2024 17:18

This is why I left Mumsnet originally, its clear transphobic bias coupled with its majority boomer transphobic community.
Such a nasty, spiteful place.

Still, I find it hilarious watching you all perform exactly like I expect you to.
Hence why I'm still here, for the entertainment

Why did you flounce in the first place then if the "transphobic bias" is all so totes hilaire?

Needanewname42 · 01/08/2024 17:18

BlueLimeRun · 01/08/2024 17:02

I can’t see how they could feel any pride whatsoever.
The poor Italian boxer who has probably spent most of her life leading to this moment to have it stolen from her.

They probably don't get much pride probably possible themselves laughing they've cheated their way to the prize money

Go Google Caster Sementa interviews!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/08/2024 17:18

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Are you saying that it is inherently transphobic to say that a male person is a man?

Why are facts transphobic?

Getonwitit · 01/08/2024 17:19

Fed up with all this crap and it is now getting to the point where women are battered by men in the name of sport. No matter what you wear or what you cut off if you were born XY you are male, man, he, him. You will never be a female or woman, her or she. And if telling the truth makes me anti trans or bigoted then that's fine, crack on and call me what you like, i don't care because i am the one telling the truth. Males cannot become females and that is a fact.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2024 17:19

Here is some more reading for any one who is interested.

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

Tommy R. Lundberg, Ross Tucker, Kerry McGawley, Alun G. Williams, Grégoire P. Millet, Øyvind Sandbakk, Glyn Howatson, Gregory A. Brown, Lara A. Carlson, Sarah Chantler, Mark A. Chen, Shane M. Heffernan, Neil Heron, Christopher Kirk, Marie H. Murphy, Noel Pollock, Jamie Pringle, Andrew Richardson, Jordan Santos-Concejero, Georgina K. Stebbings, Ask Vest Christiansen, Stuart M. Phillips, Cathy Devine, Carwyn Jones, Jon Pike, Emma N. Hilton

Perspectives:

The IOC framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations is misaligned with current scientific and medical evidence and offers insufficient protection of fair competition for female athletes within a female category. Also, it does not adequately engage female athletes, who are primary stakeholders in their sport. Male pubertal development results in large performance advantages in athletic sports, which necessitates a female category that excludes male advantages, to ensure equal opportunity through fair competition for female athletes at all levels of sport. There is currently no evidence that testosterone suppression in transgender women can reverse male development and negate male advantages. In contrast, there is convincing evidence that the male advantage persists even when testosterone is suppressed. As a result, sports face the uncomfortable reality that the inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories cannot be reconciled with fairness, and in some instances safety, for females in athletic sports. The IOC must reconsider its framework and revise the 10 principles to reflect scientific evidence and fundamental principles of fair competition. We also recommend implementing a system to enable female stakeholders to be consulted in this matter and to have their voices heard, recognized, and valued.

Here is another good paper about 'testosterone'.

The New Zealand review of whether IOC 10nm/l would work to reduce advantage. It is actually rather a good explainer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#B44-ijerph-19-09103

Transwoman Elite Athletes: Their Extra Percentage Relative to Female Physiology
Alison K Heather, Stacy T. Sims, Academic Editor and Christopher T. Minson, Academic Editor

August 2022

Abstract:

There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females. The non-overlapping ranges of testosterone between the sexes has led sports regulators, such as the International Olympic Committee, to use 10 nmol/L testosterone as a sole physiological parameter to divide the male and female sporting divisions. Using testosterone levels as a basis for separating female and male elite athletes is arguably flawed. Male physiology cannot be reformatted by estrogen therapy in transwoman athletes because testosterone has driven permanent effects through early life exposure. This descriptive critical review discusses the inherent male physiological advantages that lead to superior athletic performance and then addresses how estrogen therapy fails to create a female-like physiology in the male. Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.

Conclusion:

Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.

The current IOC regulations allow transwomen athletes to compete if testosterone levels have been lowered to <10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to competition. While this begins to address the advantageous effects of circulating testosterone on athletic performance, it does not take into account the advantage afforded by testosterone exposure prior to transitioning. The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women. Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.

This dailymail link discusses it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12111455/The-trans-advantage-womens-sports-explained.html

The 'trans advantage' in women's sports explained

A major review published by the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) last August suggests early exposure to testosterone means trans women have physiological benefits over biological women.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12111455/The-trans-advantage-womens-sports-explained.html

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 01/08/2024 17:21

1 August 2024: the day MVAWG became an Olympic sport.

Omlettes · 01/08/2024 17:21

Flossyts · 01/08/2024 16:26

I hate how this gets called out as being anti trans. I am not anti trans. I am against a woman being hit in the face by someone with all the genetic advantages of being male.
dress how you like, be who you want as long as this doesn’t unfairly or unsafely impact someone else.

Dont even engage. If anyone is saying that to you, you know they are a sick misogynist, tell em to F OFF!

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