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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

531 replies

PONZOL · 29/07/2024 13:18

How and where will the government get the money from I wonder?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqe82lk5g5o

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
MrsSunshine2b · 29/07/2024 14:26

justasking111 · 29/07/2024 14:08

Junior doctors deserve it IMO I know two whose work schedule would finish off most of us.

I will, however, be seriously pissed off if GPs demand the same. Getting in to see one ftf is impossible I've had seven months of monthly phone calls being prescribed medication that didn't work. TWICE!!! I've found the solution on Mumsnet and suggested the GP prescribed that. After six months they did.

The other issue I sorted with the pharmacist after standing my ground . Again fixed.

We've 12 GPs all working part time, some doing private work, some doing police headquarters work, one an out of hours GP attached to the hospital trust.

They're topping up their income elsewhere so nope don't deserve a pay rise.

So because GPs are finding their salary unworkable for full time hours and are therefore seeking alternative streams of income, and that's inconvenient for you, we SHOULDN'T increase their pay so they are able to be GPs full time?

Runsyd · 29/07/2024 14:27

Needmoresleep · 29/07/2024 13:29

The bigger problem is that there are not enough jobs or training places for doctors when they reach the end of F2.

More pay means cut budgets, more Physician Associates and more of our young doctors having to either move to Australia or find careers outside medicine. A huge waste.

I genuinely don't understand. There was another doctor on MN the other day saying the NHS would collapse if we didn't import lots of foreign doctors, but you seem to be suggesting the opposite. Are you saying there is actually an oversupply of British doctors?

Leafygreen84 · 29/07/2024 14:27

Amazing news! Good on them, they deserve every penny. “Junior” doctor is a horribly misleading term, they’re qualified medical professionals who work gruelling stressful long shifts. About time they got paid properly for it.

justasking111 · 29/07/2024 14:28

Wery · 29/07/2024 14:24

Excellent. I hope it's part of a bigger increase so our young doctors stop emigrating to find jobs.
My nephew has just finished F2. Every single one of his cohort are leaving the UK. Those are young doctors who have trained for 7 years who are desperately needed in the NHS.

I know three who are going abroad 😢. Their parents are sad but understand why they're doing it

Feelinadequate23 · 29/07/2024 14:29

Good! about time they were paid properly for all their training, awful lifestyle and limited choices over work placements. Plus the fact that they are, you know, saving lives!

ClaudiaWankleman · 29/07/2024 14:29

MummyLongLegsss · 29/07/2024 14:25

You'd be better campaigning to rid the wastage and overpaid middle managers.

I'm not campaigning for anything?

I'm simply responding to the OP asking where the money is coming from.

BuyOrBake · 29/07/2024 14:30

Inthemosquitogarden · 29/07/2024 13:22

Oh and various new/rebuild hospital projects are also slated to be cancelled

No point having a new hospital if there are no doctors to work there.

Junior doctors have been treated appallingly for years.

jazzyBBBB · 29/07/2024 14:30

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 29/07/2024 13:32

The fact is that the private sector has raced ahead of the public sector for years now in terms of pay. Public sector employees - you know, those people who didn’t get any furlough and worked through the pandemic - are leaving or else losing their homes. It’s a massive crisis.

When you look at like for like jobs in terms of responsibility and stress, it’s bonkers.

Edited

This is a rather narrow view. Neither me
Or my husband have had a pay rise in public sector for 3 years, oh no actually husband got 0.5% last year when his company made $200 BILLION!!! This is the reality of what is going on in private sector.

Honestly people have no idea how hard it is in private sector, we haven't seen real term increase for years and most people don't unless they move role.

Genuinely pleased for the doctors but don't think it's a bed of roses in the private sector cos it ain't.

No furlough here just a 70+ hour week to help my company survive.

Wery · 29/07/2024 14:31

Runsyd · 29/07/2024 14:27

I genuinely don't understand. There was another doctor on MN the other day saying the NHS would collapse if we didn't import lots of foreign doctors, but you seem to be suggesting the opposite. Are you saying there is actually an oversupply of British doctors?

Yes there are unemployed doctors, lots of them.
This is because the last government brought in Physicians Associates. These are unqualified people who do a 2 year course and then take doctors jobs. GP practices have been given money but aren't allowed to spend it on actual real doctors, only these pretend doctors.

Furthermore doctors who finish their first two mandatory years work are then left without jobs (see my post above) and are leaving the UK in droves.

Eviebeans · 29/07/2024 14:32

Whenwillitgetwarm · 29/07/2024 13:22

They had to end the strike. And UK doctors are underpaid. They’re cancelling other proposed projects to fund it.

Have you any idea which other projects that might be - not that I’m complaining in any way - if you can’t get medical attention when you need it …

jazzyBBBB · 29/07/2024 14:33

That should have said neither me or husband had raise in PRIVATE sector.
🤦🏻‍♀️

gardenmusic · 29/07/2024 14:33

I was a medical rep, selling to hospitals. I was part time, had a company car (obviously you are taxed on that) and an expense account.
I was selling necessary medication, but not for a life threatening condition.
Even without bonus I earned more than the junior doctors. I was part time.
This isn't a stealth boast, it's a comparison.

Cattery · 29/07/2024 14:34

SauviGone · 29/07/2024 13:26

Having worked in the NHS I’d say they could make huge savings by sacking a lot of the useless admin staff who are only there to drain as much as they can from their employers.

In the team I worked in you could have sacked 50% of them and it would have had absolutely no negative effect on the running of the hospital whatsoever.

Same as admin in the police

Alexandra2001 · 29/07/2024 14:35

TheThingIsYeah · 29/07/2024 13:29

Shake that magic money tree!

How will it be paid for? Well the left of centre MNetters will point to the £700m saved from the Rwanda debacle. But I'd like to think the government is setting aside funding for another model to stop the boats.

How did Hunt fund a £21 billion NI cut? (answer: he didn't fund it)

Didn't see right wing MNetters complaining.

The cost of this pay rise is relatively small, far less than seeing Doc's carrying on strike action and leaving the profession.

If we want any form of health service, we need medically trained staff.

Whenwillitgetwarm · 29/07/2024 14:36

Qanat53 · 29/07/2024 14:05

I do laugh though at the many NHS Surgeons I meet in my area. Always saying how they don’t get “paid enough” to do various things, including sending kids to private school.
In total BS, they live nicely, holidays and kids in private school.
What they were really saying is they can’t afford to send their kids “boarding” at private school. sad

Sure Jan GIF

Hmm sounds like an attempt to conflate NHS workers with private schools in order to rile up the anti- private school crew to turn their hate on doctors. A little too obvious this one.

Everanewbie · 29/07/2024 14:37

@OonaStubbs I would suggest that they are paid more than the average salary because their skills are in demand to a higher than average extent, along with the associated level of expertise required and responsibilities borne.

The reality is that NHS staff, particularly doctors, are underpaid because the NHS as an effective monopoly on their employment. In an open market I would imagine their labour would be priced far higher. That is why we see the exodus to Canada, Australia and so on as soon as they get to certain points in their careers.

But it does sound like you have sympathies with a communist world view where in theory we are all paid the same, regardless of expertise, experience, ingenuity and so on. If we were all paid the same, I'm not sure many would bother with 6 years at med school, endless exams, free overtime as standard, 48 hour on calls, nights, constantly having to move around the country for rotations, uncertainty, abuse by patients, persecution by GMC, lack of whistle-blower protection.

napody · 29/07/2024 14:38

Thanks for the link- we're in agreement here.

Addictedtohotbaths · 29/07/2024 14:38

Findingmypurposeinlife · 29/07/2024 13:50

Hopefully MP's will freeze their own pay and subsidise it from the savings they make.

Edited

They don’t earn that much

justasking111 · 29/07/2024 14:39

Everanewbie · 29/07/2024 14:37

@OonaStubbs I would suggest that they are paid more than the average salary because their skills are in demand to a higher than average extent, along with the associated level of expertise required and responsibilities borne.

The reality is that NHS staff, particularly doctors, are underpaid because the NHS as an effective monopoly on their employment. In an open market I would imagine their labour would be priced far higher. That is why we see the exodus to Canada, Australia and so on as soon as they get to certain points in their careers.

But it does sound like you have sympathies with a communist world view where in theory we are all paid the same, regardless of expertise, experience, ingenuity and so on. If we were all paid the same, I'm not sure many would bother with 6 years at med school, endless exams, free overtime as standard, 48 hour on calls, nights, constantly having to move around the country for rotations, uncertainty, abuse by patients, persecution by GMC, lack of whistle-blower protection.

This in spades. One whistleblower consultant we know wound up in Australia for trying to expose a dangerous surgeon in his department.

Needmoresleep · 29/07/2024 14:45

Runsyd · 29/07/2024 14:27

I genuinely don't understand. There was another doctor on MN the other day saying the NHS would collapse if we didn't import lots of foreign doctors, but you seem to be suggesting the opposite. Are you saying there is actually an oversupply of British doctors?

There is a bottleneck.

F1 & F2s are the ones most people think of as junior doctors. Long hours, low pay. Over the next 7 days DD has four days of normal shifts then three nights, then straight onto her new rotation.

More medical school places have opened up but specialist training has not been expanded, so a bottleneck. There is only one training place for every four young doctors. Even GP training is hugely competitive. So because they were working long hours in F2 but need to do well in exams to get a training place it became normal to take a third year, either in a locum position (not the paid per hour locum position but a one year temp contract) or medical school teaching as a clinical training fellow.

But.a lot of the temp positions are now filled by Physicians Associates and they are absorbing some of the specialist training resource as well.

DD is very aware that at the end of her F2 she may have no choice but to move to Australia or to change career. She is lucky in that she also has an engineering degree. However she would much rather be a doctor.

Making it worse F1/F2 positions have been randomised so you can be sent anywhere in the UK. (We know one girl with top marks from Oxbridge, who has been sent to a rural hospital in NI whilst her fiance is in London.) Then specialist training is so hard to get that you then have to move wherever you can to get it - and presumably you also had to move to get the post-F2 locum/CTF work. No point working hard, and being good at your job. The NHS don't care. Training positions are open to applicants across the world, and presumably we are still recruiting consultants from overseas, so British doctors are simply replaced.

Pay was the issue for the BMA, and perhaps those junior doctors with secure training places. Not for F1/F2s. To be honest DD is working such long hours that she takes home plenty and has no time to spend it.

Nanny0gg · 29/07/2024 14:52

Needmoresleep · 29/07/2024 13:29

The bigger problem is that there are not enough jobs or training places for doctors when they reach the end of F2.

More pay means cut budgets, more Physician Associates and more of our young doctors having to either move to Australia or find careers outside medicine. A huge waste.

Maybe Wes Streeting will be looking at that too

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 29/07/2024 14:53

Good. They deserve it, and more.

ChefsKisser · 29/07/2024 14:54

I'm a nurse and can't wait for our 22% increase....hahahaha....

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 29/07/2024 14:54

I doubt it @Nanny0gg . Replace with assistants, foolishly. It seems you have to pay yourself if you want sufficient suitably qualified staff these days.