Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

[PONZOL]

How and where will the government get the money from I wonder?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqe82lk5g5o

So instead you want to pay a junior doctor less than what someone earns in a coffee shop?

The 22percent is over a few years too.

That’s great news. Bored senseless of MN posters asking “where’s the money coming from” every 3 seconds when the Tories spent 14 years giving it all to their mates and now Labour want to do something GOOD

The average doctor who has worked full time for 30 years is on £130k a year. By average - I mean average brain surgeon, average cardiothoracic surgeon, average physician. For 10-12 years of those 30 years - they are on less than £60k - despite literally being responsible for thousands of lives and studying outside of paid time to be good at their job.

The reality is the taxpayer can't afford this level of expertise, hence the rapid growth of private healthcare in the UK and exodus to other countries.

You can have PAs - that is what the government believes you deserve anyway

What does their background and type of school have to do with the work they are doing and trained to do?

I would suggest their background and schooling is quite significant actually. Your point being they deserved a higher payrise because they are ' cleverer and studied for far longer'. The problem is we don't live in a perfect meritocracy. Kids from well off backgrounds and/or are privately educated have greater opportunities to be ' cleverer and study longer'. Other kids simply can't afford it or face additional barriers. They may well end up in professions like nursing or teaching.

I don't like blanket comparisons between professions either(especially without regard to grade or experience). They lack nuance and end up denigrating the valuable work done. Quite disingenuous too. A senior social worker in child protection will be managing an enormous amount of risk in comparison to an F1 for example (arguably much more senior docs too).

10-12 years if they have no sick leave. Maternity leave, pass all their exams first time and always work full time.

I'm reality it is 15-20 years or never for many doctors.

@stringmittens I think you may need to read the comment I responded to which clearly mentions other public sector workers. As for the “spoiler alert” dig…bit unnecessary don’t you think 🤔

Misguided comment. Of medical students between 2005 - 2016, 30% of medical students were privately educated. That is a higher number than the 7% privately educated in the population - but still only a third of doctors.

Even if all were privately educated - fact still stands that the responsibilities medical carry are huge, significant and life-affirming. And social workers, teachers, civil servants are valuable and do a great job - however, the fact remains that the incentive to put in what it takes to be a doctor would be removed if they were not well renumerated.

Now if the grade requirement were lowered and the course shortened and made less intense and say you started churning put neurosurgeons in 4 years - you would certainly be able to attract a wider crowd and pay them less. Feel free. I would ensure any family or friend of mine goes elsewhere for medical care if that became the case. And clearly (and luckily for most in the UK) the government and most reasonable people agree. Hoping for full pay restoration for our resident medics in the near future. Long overdue

Every doctor I've helped from our school comes from the lowest socioeconomic group. Should they be paid less/more than someone who went to private school ? Makes no sense to bring schooling into it.

And no, I don't think there's a magic money tree. But there is enough money to fund the £1.2 billion it cost to cover the strikes, so I believe there's the money to cover the pay rises. Recover the stolen PPE funds and every public sector worker could face a v nice pay day.

Doctors today will retire at 67+. Will be lucky to even become a consultant as there are not enough jobs. And need to pay their rent as F1/2/3/4. Unfortunately utility companies won't accept 'well one day I'll have a nice pension' as payment for heating.

Because they’ve been smart and retained a union.

@mumsneedwine how interesting that doctors qualifying today will retire at 67+. Like everyone else I think, including my 63 year old husband.

My DS has a PhD and as an early career academic has also to pay his rent and utility bills. Just as DH had to as a Pupil when he earnt peanuts.

The difficulty with the medical profession is that they think they are different from the rest of us. They aren't. They are no more skilled or qualified than the other professions: accountancy, law, architecture, etc. Except that if average earnings over a lifetime were assessed, the doctors overall would probably earn more. The Parners at PwC and magic circle law firms, on £500k plus are the exception rather than the rule.

The biggest difference I see is that the Dr's and other NHS staff never stop whingeing about their pay and conditions (their employer) to stakeholders including patients. If other professions were to be as rude to clients on a regular basis or were to bad mouth their employer they would be swiftly dismissed.

The entire culture of the NHs has become unacceptable.

But don’t YOU realised that we have been underpaying the public sector for years and years and years and it was going to come to head at some point?

Yep, it was always going to come to a head. I remember the last winter of discontent. I am looking forward to the damage the next will do to the Labour Party. The chickens are coming home to roost and Labour is the equivalent of Mr Fox.

??? That would depend on the grade they reach whether consultant/GP/registrar/surgeon part time/full time etc etc etc!!!

@RosesAndHellebores when has a doctor ever said they are special. It's Bingo time again. Pay them or lose them.

And again. We are talking about doctors, and yes everyone will retire at 67+, so talking about pensions is a bit of a waste of time when discussing the salary of a 23 year old.

However, when you've performed CPR on a 5 year old who has had a cardiac arrest or taken an ABG or given someone the news they are going to die, then come back to me and tell me you think that's worth £15.33 an hour. F1s do all those jobs.

The difference between all these other professions and Doctors, is that its only the Doctors than can save your life or that of a loved one.

I can wait for my new extension drawings or my tax return, but if i have a heart attack or my child has leukemia, it simply cannot wait.

NHS staff consistently earn less than many other professions, during austerity, they had either 0 or 1% pay rises, during CV who did we all need?
How quickly people like you forget, as you rub your hands in glee at the prospect of a "winter of discontent"

@mumsneedwine indeed F1's do all those jobs and it gives them essential experience at the start of their careers and when essentially they are still training and will reap significant rewards when they are more experienced.

What's the hourly rate of a squaddie who may risk their life in Afghanistan or Iraq and may see a colleague or chum blown up?

Regrettably if I or a member of my family are taken ill in the UK, they have to wait and may die as a result of that wait. In 2001 my father's GP failed to diagnose his acute myeloid leukaemia.

and the fact that all these strikes began under the tories watch is an inconvenient truth I suppose. If the junior doctors accept this then Labour has ENDED the strikes.

Also, no architect, lawyer or even teacher has one possible employer. Doctors can only work and train in the NHS. Which, if you hadn't noticed, is an utter shit show at the moment. Because it's chronically underfunded. New nurses can't get jobs as there is a recruitment freeze due to lack of funds. Waits in A&E can be over 24 hours as no space to be seen (no social care funding so lots of bed blocking).

But doctors (& others) continue to work in these appalling conditions for sub standard pay. Be grateful they do. Asking for FPR seems the minimal they should be rewarded with, especially as they didn't get to work from home during the pandemic. Or be furloughed. They went to work, with no PPE and watched people die daily. While their pay was cut.

Maybe if the last government hadn't been so keen to destroy the NHS and sell it off to their private owning mates we wouldn't be in this mess. Greed kills.

I don’t know why posters keep stating that doctors think they are so special. All they are doing is striking or choosing to leave - all workers in a union can do the former and anyone can do the latter should they wish.

I hope they all do get the pay restoration and more that they deserve.

A PP summed it up perfectly- so many seem to know the cost everything and the value of nothing.

@RosesAndHellebores you do love a bit of whataboutery don't you ? F1s are fully trained doctors. Not sure you understand what doctors in training are. Because it's all of them - even consultants undertake training.

People who really don't want doctors to be paid the same as they were in 2008, please explain why you think they are worth less now than then. For a job that has been one harder - A&E described worse than a war zone by some army medics.

F1s are fully trained doctors, sure they aren't trained in a speciality on their first day working as a qualified doctor (who is?), but they are fully functioning members of the team who have a lot of responsibility from the outset.

The Armed Forces comparison is boring. When i was in the pay wasn't great to start but accommodation was heavily subsidised, my pay was topped up with GYHP, being away from home station etc. Someone on deployment gets enhanced pay, we all saved it and it was a fair chunk. You can also join with zero qualifications, and your responsibilities, as in any job, increase over time and experience. A better comparison would be a military doctor I guess- same qualification and investment in training; they're on substantially more than their NHS counterparts and in reality the hours actually worked and conditions when in this country are better, they also get cheap accommodation for their families etc. Junior doctors have to move every 6 months and don't get accommodation sorted etc.

But we’ve been underpaying the private sector too. Everyone has been suffering. Did you think the cost of living crisis is limited to public sector employees? Of course it isn’t.

@Blackbirdinfinity this help ?