Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

[PONZOL]

How and where will the government get the money from I wonder?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqe82lk5g5o

Giving any group of people a 22% pay rise at a time when inflation has only just come down, through the public purse, and by borrowing money no less is stupid.

not when that group of people have had way below inflation pay rises for many years meaning the actual value of their wage is no way near what it was 20 years ago or so. If they’d been having ok pay rises in the last they wouldn’t need such a big one now. It’s just a catch up. And seeing as retaining doctors is so difficult it’s a much needed one.

As for where the money will come from, well vat on private school fees for one, scrapping the hundreds of millions of £ for Rwanda for another. Also scrapping stuff like the Stonehenge tunnel. Is hs2 severely reduced now as well? Great, making sure we have enough doctors is more important than any of that.

And if it comes to a NI rise then I’m all for that. I was astounded the tories cut NI recently, seemed a desperate tactic to win votes at a time when the country’s finances are so bad.

Yes they’re all doing that, that why waiting lists to see a gynaecologist here are 18 months, wait time to see a neurologist over 2 years, waiting time to see a maxfax doctor 9 months. That’s why my husband nearly died while on a 12 month waiting list for a dermatologist for something which turned out to be life threatening not just eczema. That’s why some poor woman died under her coat in the waiting room at a&e at my local hospital.

They don’t think they are special - where did you get that from?
They just want to be paid appropriately for their skills and hours. Who doesn’t?
They voted on and went on strike just like anyone in a union has the right to.

but a job nonetheless

I agree with this.
The vocation nonsense needs to stop.
The massive unpaid overtime and good will need to stop - not the couple of hours here and there but the evenings, weekends, leave days spent working, catching up with patient admin.
The NHS has only just about been working due to this.

Wages appropriate for training, skills and responsibilities need to be paid or they will walk.

With the current state of public finances I think it’s much better to take money away from the dead than the living, if that’s the choice.

Show me a waitress in todays society that can afford to invest in flats and I’ll concede your point.

My dad was a carpet fitter. We lived in a four bed detached and my mum didn’t work.

We are now a professional couple and live in a terrace. A nice terrace, but to move to a semi in the same area would cripple us.

Things are not the same.

I think they should have got more tbh.

Well after this offer all it seems to have done is help young doctors with their decision. Many will do as Oona suggests, and now leave. Australia and others are actively recruiting them. For more money, less hours and better training.

The government had an opportunity to save the NHS and they've blown it. If they'd tackled the other stuff, maybe said loans can be written off if you stay (costs nothing as they won't ever finish paying off the £250,000+) or linked FPR to future deals then it would be different. But to offer 1% more this year is an insult.

I hope no one complains when they can't see any doctor in a few years. Like GPs, they'll be unemployed in the UK so will need to leave. And other countries will welcome them and treat them well.

I'd like to see them recoup training costs (at a commercial interest rate) if doctors move abroad.

I’d prefer carrot to stick. Stay here, work in the NHS for a minimum of ten years and get your student loan written off.

@WindsurfingDreams well you can go whistle for that. Indentured servants are illegal. It does not cost £250,000 to train a doctor, that's a load of bollocks. But that's how much they'll repay, so what training costs are you referring to ?

One F2 finished his 13 hour shift yesterday and walked straight into unemployment today. Nothing for August as no training spot. Will he be compensated for being sold a lie 8 years ago when he applied - when his salary would have been 20% higher and job security was a thing.

And a commercial interest rate would be great, not 7% when base rate was 0.75%. Personally I think that's called theft. But it's what they pay.

Why have they blown it? Step one was getting the doctors back to work. Hopefully job done. They’ve been in power for five weeks - there is a 14 year shit show to fix.

@Tiredalwaystired the doctors have not accepted this. It's going to a vote, which may very likely end up with this deal of 1% extra this year being rejected. Want a doctor, pay them. There is no commitment to FPR so strikes will continue if rejected. Much much cheaper to offer them the FPR over 5 years.

It should always be headline news that this is NOT a pay rise. They've never asked for a pay rise. They've asked for their pay to be restored to where it should be if it hadn't been cut in real terms for 14 years.

Goodwill in the NHS goes both ways. Treat staff badly and it goes. If there is another pandemic we are stuffed.

That’s a bit cart before horse isn’t it? They haven’t NOT accepted this either. Give them a chance to see whether this is accepted or not first.

@Tiredalwaystired agreed. But been talking to a lot of my ex students who are doctors and not one is voting to accept 🤷‍♀️. They know their worth. All from disadvantaged backgrounds, worked their butts off to get into and through medical school so they'll fight for what they believe is fair.
All they ask if the same pay they'd have been on when they applied. Doesn't seem that much to ask.

I don't think they think they are special, why do you think that?

I think we need to remember that pay reflects the skill and scarcity of any profession. The smaller the pool of people who can do a job the more you need to pay to recruit or keep them.

Love the implication that doctors don't live in the real world. When they see the real world in their faces every day, especially in ED and GP.

They needed a pay rise though don’t know if it should be called that. It is a good thing if it happens. I hope they turn their attention t
now to post office and blood scandals. It is a responsibility and needs to be paid for. Hard times. Another reason to make sure those who are drowning get a big leg up and those ok continue. We need to move away from thinking charity is an intrinsic part of life.

After someone commented on the thread last night about Grade 8 nurses and their salaries. I had a Google. It's varied from 51k to 91k.

Are these grade 8 the modern matrons?

Newly qualified doctors leaving for Australia in droves. My DBIL recruits from UK for practices all over AUS. Anecdotally he said that they work fewer hours for roughly double the money!

Yes and so they should. If they are not valued here then why stay? They are very talented young people with lots to offer and if that is not recognised here then why not go to Australia? The sad thing is that they should not need to go to the other side of the world just to get decent working conditions.

Australia will eventually run out of vacancies, I wonder where's next?

Canada and New Zealand are also very keen to have them.

NZ love British healthcare staff, we lived there for a bit, loads of British staff in the hospitals.