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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

531 replies

PONZOL · 29/07/2024 13:18

How and where will the government get the money from I wonder?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqe82lk5g5o

OP posts:
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prescribingmum · 31/07/2024 15:01

justasking111 · 31/07/2024 14:47

Australia will eventually run out of vacancies, I wonder where's next?

There are plenty of other countries that will willingly take them, pay them well and show them far more respect than they get here.

All those making ignorant comments that they can go elsewhere if they don't like the pay and conditions need reminding that the UK need them more than they need us. There are a huge number of issues in the NHS but resolving them is next to impossible if we do not have enough front line staff. Paying them fairly will in turn fill gaps and reduce excessive spending on temp staff and locums. Only once this is resolved, will it be possible to focus on other problems

SaltyChocolate · 31/07/2024 15:04

NHS and teachers receive quite high pension contributions. I think this part often gets forgotten. Many of them retire at 60.

Judetiff · 31/07/2024 15:05

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 20:28

My parents used to give their winter fuel allowance to age concern. They thought it was ridiculous.

Your parents clearly didn’t need it. There are many who can’t claim pension credit because they receive a full pension having worked hard, paying into the system, all their lives; therefore, they will lose the desperately needed winter fuel payment.

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2024 15:07

@Judetiff your right, they didn't need it. Dad worked for 42 years for the same company so had a nice final salary pension. They were not wealthy by any means. But in those days fuel bills weren't so high - might have needed it last winter.

However, it's madness that millionaires get it. But do think it should be available for anyone that needs it. Cold kills.

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2024 15:09

Even the US is now actively recruiting - some states have dropped their requirements so anyone can come and try it out.

anyolddinosaur · 31/07/2024 15:18

New Zealand has a shortage of doctors too, no problem in voting with their feet. They can also take other jobs - pharmaceutical sales, management consultancy both recruit those fed up of being over-worked and underpaid.

AI was a fat lot of use in the pandemic. It will help with the more mundane and predictable but it will be years before it is a substitute for much. Do you turn to Dr Google now or do you head for A&E with those worrying symptoms?

As for the idea that there are plenty of jobs - not plenty of consultant posts. Yes there is still medical work to be done and the country wastes a lot of money paying locums to do work that could be done by people in permanent posts. There will be tens of thousands of consultants retiring relatively soon - within the training period for new consultants - and not enough posts for people like anaesthetists to replace them. I wonder how happy the surgeon husband will be when he cant operate because there are not enough anaesthetists being trained. Every had your computer collapse on you or been out of action after an attack? This is what you want to trust your life to if you need surgery?

Edit for typos, may have missed some.

eastegg · 31/07/2024 15:21

Aussieland · 29/07/2024 13:20

Where do the government get their money to pay their other workers a living wage? There. Junior doctors have had a pay CUT of this amount and it’s getting them back to where they should have been. Maybe if your wages had been cut by a third compared to inflation for working in increasingly dangerous conditions then you wouldn’t be asking!

Really pleased to see the first few responses to this thread although haven’t read further.

The doctors deserve it and we need to end the strikes. It’s a similar situation to the criminal barristers last year. It’s pay restoration (or part restoration).

StringMittens · 31/07/2024 15:39

MissyB1 · 31/07/2024 14:57

NZ love British healthcare staff, we lived there for a bit, loads of British staff in the hospitals.

Yes UK's loss is definitely other countries' gain. The irony is all the insightful people who berate doctors for being above themselves and not that special etc. don't realise how valuable and necessary medics are. Until the day they need their bypass or whatever and it will be "Wot no doctors!"

mumsneedwine · 31/07/2024 16:03

Every young medic I know wants to stay in the UK and be part of a functioning NHS. But they need a job. Wee needs to sort out this first as it's cheaper than using PAs and doctors from abroad. We've trained them, let's employ them here.

anyolddinosaur · 31/07/2024 20:03

To those who begrudge anyone else some pay restoration - how much would you want to deal with this (I 'm not reading the whole thing, the headline is bad enough)

Doctors pull 26-inch EEL out of a man's BUTT after he forced it in mol.im/a/13693493 via dailym.ai/android

mumsneedwine · 01/08/2024 10:08

I take £10 from you but give you back £5 is the best analogy I've seen for this offer. Not sure why Wes refused to follow the Scottish plan to achieve restoration over several years, which would have been accepted. BMA leaders asked but he said no.
Weird as it will cost more in the long run with locums and more strikes next year - unless FPR is achieved. It's not a pay rise, it's restoration.

uneffingbelievable · 01/08/2024 11:11

mumsneed wine - Bingo !! Was waiting for that comment 😂😂. Don't like it, leave. OK, they will, like teachers. We have 14 vacancies this Sept - anyone want a nice easy job

Own goal there - you jsut said there were not enough jobs for them in the UK!

Ispecialise- seriously junior doctors are not the hardest done by owrkers on the planet - you have lost touch with reality

StringMittens · 01/08/2024 11:28

uneffingbelievable · 01/08/2024 11:11

mumsneed wine - Bingo !! Was waiting for that comment 😂😂. Don't like it, leave. OK, they will, like teachers. We have 14 vacancies this Sept - anyone want a nice easy job

Own goal there - you jsut said there were not enough jobs for them in the UK!

Ispecialise- seriously junior doctors are not the hardest done by owrkers on the planet - you have lost touch with reality

There is no own goal. The poster is right that there is a problem at F1/F2 and training places beyond that stage. It is also correct that many junior doctors at all different levels are leaving due to working conditions and not being valued. The two comments are not contradictory. You do realise that junior doctor is everything below consultant, don't you? Or maybe you don't.

SleepyRich · 01/08/2024 11:36

It's really not even a new 22%, if I understand correctly this figure includes a previous already agreed increase (9%). This is unlikely to be agreed and strikes will continue. It's been put to the vote from the BMA as part of an agreement but since the BMA aren't pushing for yes strikes will continue.

Government need to restore Doctors pay. The strikes the previous government have caused have already cost an estimated £1.5 billion.

To fund FPR (35% wage increase) was costed at £1.65 billion. However of this £0.62 billion would return to the treasury in tax/NI - so net cost of FPR was £1.03billion. I.e. if the government didnt force the strikes and paid what the Drs were asking for (i.e. what they were paid in 2008 properly adjusted for inflation) they could have saved £470 million.

I strongly suspect the offer will need to be increased beyond 22% to end strikes.

newmummycwharf1 · 01/08/2024 11:59

GPs have just voted for collective action. When will the government learn?

BIossomtoes · 01/08/2024 12:00

newmummycwharf1 · 01/08/2024 11:59

GPs have just voted for collective action. When will the government learn?

It’s been in power for 27 days, ffs. When will people stop expecting miracles?

newmummycwharf1 · 01/08/2024 12:03

BIossomtoes · 01/08/2024 12:00

It’s been in power for 27 days, ffs. When will people stop expecting miracles?

The government as a collective - not necessarily this specific government. And this specific government has been in talks with medics including GPs for over 2 years. So are well versed on the issue but still propose more use of private healthcare. They don't get a pass

mumsneedwine · 01/08/2024 12:14

@uneffingbelievable again, Bingo ! No one ever, in the history of the planet, has said that doctors (or teachers) are the hardest done people on the planet. Never, not once.

I assume, as has been stated, that you have no idea what a junior doctor is ? Probably the person operating on your heart/child/leg is that junior doctor. Qualified 9+ years. And they leave because pay is shit and working conditions awful. And because of people like you.

ispecialiseinthis · 01/08/2024 12:16

uneffingbelievable · 01/08/2024 11:11

mumsneed wine - Bingo !! Was waiting for that comment 😂😂. Don't like it, leave. OK, they will, like teachers. We have 14 vacancies this Sept - anyone want a nice easy job

Own goal there - you jsut said there were not enough jobs for them in the UK!

Ispecialise- seriously junior doctors are not the hardest done by owrkers on the planet - you have lost touch with reality

Ispecialise - seriously junior doctors are not the hardest done by owrkers on the planet - you have lost touch with reality

Where have I said that?

anyolddinosaur · 01/08/2024 13:31

"Asked how much it would cost to settle the junior doctors' pay, the Chancellor told Times Radio: "It's GBP350 million." She said that was a "drop in the ocean" compared to the GBP1.7 billion cost of industrial action in the NHS to the economy last year." Funny how the Chancellor thinks it's not only far less costly that some of the amounts bandied about but good value.

Junior doctors are very well qualified and have valuable transferable skills. If you want to keep them you pay them, if not you can be treated by AI until the computers go down.

BIossomtoes · 01/08/2024 13:34

And this specific government has been in talks with medics including GPs for over 2 years.

I think that’s highly unlikely. Presumably you have some evidence?

justasking111 · 01/08/2024 17:20

newmummycwharf1 · 01/08/2024 11:59

GPs have just voted for collective action. When will the government learn?

They're going on strike over their contract rather than their hours though I read. As someone unable to get a face to face appointment for seven months you have to wonder how effective it will be compared to hospital strikes.

mumsneedwine · 01/08/2024 17:27

Wes has offered GPs more money today. Strikes unlikely anyway, actions to be taken will not compromise patient safety as junior doctor strikes didn't (because consultants covered).

You can't see a doctor as GPs were not allowed to use their ARSS funding to pay for one - for anyone but a doctor. But that changed today too.
GPs are driving Ubers as can't get jobs - we have enough doctors. We just done employ them. But things seem to be changing.

newmummycwharf1 · 01/08/2024 19:41

mumsneedwine · 01/08/2024 17:27

Wes has offered GPs more money today. Strikes unlikely anyway, actions to be taken will not compromise patient safety as junior doctor strikes didn't (because consultants covered).

You can't see a doctor as GPs were not allowed to use their ARSS funding to pay for one - for anyone but a doctor. But that changed today too.
GPs are driving Ubers as can't get jobs - we have enough doctors. We just done employ them. But things seem to be changing.

Wes has accepted the DDRB recommendations (not given them more money than independently recommended by the pay review body) and allowed GP practices to employ GPs with the ARRS funding. That is a good start...

mumsneedwine · 01/08/2024 19:53

@newmummycwharf1 a good start as you say. Let's hope there is much more to come 🤞