To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Comedycook
I think it's quite interesting and worthwhile to discuss why someone conflicts really grip the public and others are practically ignored.

Ok well if you think that that's interesting and worthwhile then maybe you should ask that question then instead of what you did ask??

@kkloo

Yes, I'd be really interested in your thoughts on that.

Do you think it's possible that historical antisemitism has shaped which conflicts are seen as important?

YANBU.

And it has a lot to do with numbers.

I went to Auschwitz recently, the first time I have been to a concentration camp.

Standing there, among many other emotions, I felt angry. 6 Million Jews died, if history had taken some other course and the Nazis would not have embarked on this bizarre and horrible course of action, there would be a lot more Jews in the world today.

The tiny numbers of Jews around today means we can mostly be safely ignored. Why should an MP care about antisemitism when he has such small nimbers of Jewish constituents? The UN keeps passing ridiculous anti Israel motions because so many countries hate the only Jewish state. And so on.

I went to Dachau for GCSE History (modern world) I couldn't eat the packed lunch. I felt sick.

What specifically shocked me in my own social circle was that Israel had not indicated anything about how they intended to respond on 7th October, but sensible people in my life, people I know and love, glossed over the atrocities that had been perpetrated against Israelis in favour of worrying about what might happen to the Palestinian people in retaliation.

im sure I read there was a huge increase in antisemitism before Isreal had even responded.

100%

Surely everyone knows it means the Jordan to the Mediterranean? Don’t they?

Why was there no Palestinian uprising for their own state when the West Bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza was occupied by Egypt do ya think?

you would be surprised

Ok then, let me spell it out for you given that you “don't follow what is going on with all of the current conflicts“. 5.5M killed in Congo. 500K killed in Syria. 500K killed in Sudan. 400K killed in Yemen. 300K killed in Iraq. 250K killed in Afghanistan. Where is your outage when it comes to these much bloodier conflicts?

And what if the atrocities of Oct 7th itself? Eyes gouged out, breasts sliced off, beheadings, families tied together with wire and burned alive, the most insanely violent gang rapes (where the victims were cruelly taunted by the perpetrators), infanticide, human trophies (dead bodies) driven around the streets of Gaza for civilians to stamp and spit on…let me guess, you’re not across the details of this atrocity either right?

And yet somehow we’re expected to believe your exclusive condemnation of the world’s only Jewish state has nothing to do with antisemitism? Get real.

Because she asked if they were the scapegoats of humanity?

Yes exactly - she asked. So perhaps it’s up to other posters to provide the evidence to the contrary if they disagree. The OP posed a question and expressed her views. Is she supposed to present all sides of the debate? I don’t think that’s how it works. It’s the equivalent of ‘educate yourself’ which is, in my view, a bit of a cop out.

Bravo!

As a British born Jewish woman, thank you so much for your post and everyone else who has not attacked it. My family are Orthodox Ashkenazis (though my DPs and my DBs and myself are atheist). My DGPs and DGGPs left Lithuania during the Pogroms . I have not encountered this level of antisemitism and sheer hatred at any time during my life and am so grateful my DPs are not alive to experience it.

Seeing the suffering of innocents in Palestine breaks my heart, but I have no influence or ability to affect or change the actions of the current Israeli government. I have friends who are Muslim and am appalled at the Islamophobia they endure too. My family are the most peace-loving, gentle people who champion equality of all ethnic minorities, as they know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of hatred and discriminatory for something you have no control over. I feel frightened and sad and worried at the way this conflict is so polarised.

people dying and you say bravo. Ugh.

I don’t think only Jews and women are the only ones. Black people and Africans have also been one of the most abused groups of people as well.

I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors).

That’s just not so. The Hamas attack was almost universally condemned as the outrage it was. The protests came when people started to realise to just what lengths the Israeli government and the IDF were prepared to go, to wreak vengeance on innocent Gazan civilians, who have been made scapegoats by the Israelis.

“We can’t turn a blind eye to the current events because of the persecution of Jews in the past. Palestinians should not have to pay the price for Nazis and others who persecuted Jews.”

Um, no today’s Palestinians are not answerable for the crimes of the Nazis. A bit of historical context wouldn’t go amis though. Would you be surprised to learn that the Godfather of Palestinian nationalism, Amin al-Husseini, wasn’t simply an ally of the Nazis (the very people both my grandfathers fought against in WWII), he and his colleagues were literally honorary SS Officers? Not only this, they made concrete plans with Hitler to import The Final Solution to the Middle East to rid the land of Jews. The only reason this didn’t happen is because the war went sideways for Hitler and his generals. Yes there are even pictures of al-Husseini touring extermination camps in Europe, and pictures of him cosying up to Hitler (it is said that Adolf had a very high opinion of his friend from the Middle East). Al-Husseini worked as a Nazi propagandist from Berlin during World War II.

Even more damning - in 1947 the UN voted in favour of partition, with predominantly Arab territory assigned to the Arab state, and predominantly Jewish territory assigned to the Jewish state. The Jews were naturally elated (sovereignty for the first time in 2000 years!) The Arabs were incensed. They immediately published a leaflet which stated the following: "The Arabs have taken into their own hands the Final Solution of the Jewish problem. The problem will be solved only in blood and fire. The Jews will soon be driven out." So if you don’t think this fact isn’t relevant to how this conflict is playing out today (particularly in relation to October 7th) you are either supremely naive or just wilfully ignorant.

antisemitism has been around for decades in the Uk. In my 20s I lived in a Jewish area.

When people asked where’s I lived they assumed I was Jewish and on quite a few occasions got accused of running the world/ racist against anyone not Jewish/illuminati.

I’m Not Jewish. It was illuminating.

israel lost the moral war decades ago but we all stood back and let it happen.

I worry for the Jewish here as we are in the uk. I’d hate for people to start on my Indian DM for the atrocities Modi (her community) encourages against non Hindus.

I agree. Black people have always and still do go through so much horrific shit. My DGF worked on the same factory assembly line as a black guy. They became good friends and my DGF said he had the easier time of it, as he stood some chance of keeping under the radar when it came to his ethnicity. His friend couldn’t become less visibly black in order to be treated with respect, equality and kindness. Racism is a damning and unforgivable indictment on the human race.

I don't really see how you can post about current attitudes to Israel without including the Gaza issue: they're inextricably interlinked.

There were celebrations of the Hamas massacre on the streets of London less than 24 hours after it happened.

I don’t think there has been such collective global hatred of a religious group of people, equally to men, women and children, BY men and women, that has been going on for THOUSANDS OF YEARS than to the Jews tbh.

Can you think of any other groups targeted like that and for that long? To a group that still exists?

It was only on doing some research, which I wouldn’t have done if it hadn’t been for the response to the atrocities of Oct 7th, that I discovered the disproportionate amount of Nobel Prizes given to Jewish people and the technological, scientific and medical advancements accredited to them. Pretty mind blowing for such a tiny group of people. I think they are only 0.2% of the world population not even 1% and still they were hated globally long before this current conflict.

I remember watching a movie recently that came up on Netflix about Dr Ludwig Guttman, a German Jew, who pioneered the Paralympic Games with his treatment of British WW2 pilots with spinal injuries. Didn’t know what it was about but it was pretty amazing.

Obviously there’s Albert Einstein. I wonder what all the current Uni physics students refusing to let Jewish students on campus think of him?

Just disgusting how Jewish people are viewed through ignorance and ingrained hatred and people wonder why communities keep themselves to themselves which of course arouses more suspicion. They can never win.

I’m not Jewish btw, nor do I know any Jewish people personally.

My views are purely observations from research and no bias.

There are always going to be extremists on both sides of a conflict. The extremist Israeli settlers, for example, are no better. International opinion and support was with Israel and only began to erode when the Israeli government’s retaliation turned into the annihilation of Gazan civilians - not the perpetrators of the atrocity.

Exactly. A lot of people don’t know, or don’t want to know, about Amin al-Husseini’s connection with Hitler.

This conflict was never about ‘land’ it was always about Jews not being on the land.

The poster you replied to posted about antisemitism, not Israel. Not all Jews are Israeli (unless you're personally defining it by their thousands year old origins, although I think there was another kingdom too. Judea. Not sure if it was part of Israel or separate?).

Anyway the point is what has antisemitism aka racism against BRITISH Jews got to do with modern Israel?

This thread although depressing has motivated me to find out more about the history of Jewish people and Judaism. I find history stuff very interesting. Not just this topic but I know very little about Jewish people and Judaism.

Can I ask btw because don't want to offend anyone. Can Jewish posters tell me, should I refer to Jewish people as 'Jewish people' or as 'Jews'? I'm not sure if there's a preferred phrasing?

FactsNotFictionOnly. Again thank you from the bottom of my heart for this. I can’t tell you how much it means.

I have no idea what my proper heritage is as we have been thrown out of so many countries of the centuries. I have family who look Far Eastern, others that would be indistinguishable from a Palestinian, some of us look Eastern European and some look Iranian. We are all Jewish Orthodox . We can only trace our family back to my DGGPs who left Lithuania. From the look of some of us, we could have been from a whole host of different parts of the world.

howoftenshouldidothis I can only speak for my family and friends but I’d rather be referred to as Jewish person, rather than as a Jew. Jew is totally accurate but to me is something I associate with having been called a ‘F…….. Jew’ or other lovely term.