Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
GeneralPeter · 23/06/2024 00:00

kkloo · 22/06/2024 23:46

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

Yes, YABU

You see that people are appalled by the actions of Israel and you assign meaning to that and decide it's because people are anti-semitic.

To be clear I would feel the same about the actions of Israel no matter who the people were, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, it doesn't matter. It's not about the people, their race, ethnicity or religion, it's about the actions.

The OP is talking about a pervasive antisemitism that is far, far older than Israel or even the modern Zionist movement that gave rise to it.

Israel cannot be the explanation for that.

79Helene · 23/06/2024 00:00

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 22/06/2024 23:57

They are no longer defending themselves at all. They have now become the very obvious aggressors, because they have gone so OTT.

Wow.

kkloo · 23/06/2024 00:01

Comedycook · 22/06/2024 23:48

So do tell us how you feel about the current conflicts in

Sudan
Yemen
Democratic Republic of Congo
Myanmar

Edited

I don't follow what is going on with all of the current conflicts and we are allowed to have opinions on one without knowing everything about all of the rest of them.

So that's not the gotcha moment that you think it is.

In Irish society there has always been an awareness of the plight of the Palestinians so I would have always been aware of that when growing up.

MrsPuddle · 23/06/2024 00:02

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 22/06/2024 23:57

They are no longer defending themselves at all. They have now become the very obvious aggressors, because they have gone so OTT.

can I ask you, what do you think any government would do if its people were kidnapped? at what point does the response become OTT? If hamas refuse to give back their people, at what point do you give up...what do you think?

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 00:05

kkloo · 23/06/2024 00:01

I don't follow what is going on with all of the current conflicts and we are allowed to have opinions on one without knowing everything about all of the rest of them.

So that's not the gotcha moment that you think it is.

In Irish society there has always been an awareness of the plight of the Palestinians so I would have always been aware of that when growing up.

I think it's quite interesting and worthwhile to discuss why someone conflicts really grip the public and others are practically ignored.

WhiteCatBeer · 23/06/2024 00:05

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Meraas · 23/06/2024 00:06

CaptainOliviaBenson · 22/06/2024 23:55

So Palestinians are dying because Israel is defending themselves from the terrorist rulers of Palestine, yet somehow that's the fault of Jews? Do you also blame everything bad that's ever happened everywhere on Jews too?

Palestinians are dying because Israel is stealing more and more Palestinian land every day and expecting them to like it.

There is no justification for terrorism, either that committed by Hamas or Israel.

And it was OP who referenced Jews and the Jewish state. I have repeatedly said Jews should not be held accountable for the actions of Israel.

Hmmmmmph · 23/06/2024 00:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Savemysweets · 23/06/2024 00:09

I also don’t understand the logic of blaming Jewish people for their governments actions. Do the people who do that think the UK deserved some of the terror attacks post War on Terror because of how many innocent people “we” killed?

Meraas · 23/06/2024 00:10

Savemysweets · 23/06/2024 00:09

I also don’t understand the logic of blaming Jewish people for their governments actions. Do the people who do that think the UK deserved some of the terror attacks post War on Terror because of how many innocent people “we” killed?

I haven’t seen any posters say Jews are to blame for their government’s actions, can you quote them?

MrsPuddle · 23/06/2024 00:10

Following 911, there was a 20-year conflict which left about 69,000 Afghan security forces and at least 51,000 Afghan civilians dead, according to research by Brown University. About 2,500 members of the US military and 1,144 members of allied-NATO militaries died during the fighting.

Yet people were calling out Israel after a few weeks. This is why I think its anti semitism.

(...and I feel for everyone on both sides except Hamas and its Iranian funders)

kkloo · 23/06/2024 00:11

GeneralPeter · 23/06/2024 00:00

The OP is talking about a pervasive antisemitism that is far, far older than Israel or even the modern Zionist movement that gave rise to it.

Israel cannot be the explanation for that.

The OP picked out moments in history where the Jewish people were persecuted and blamed for things. They did have a rough history but so did many other groups. History isn't exactly a fairy tale.

Maybe she could look up the persecution of Muslims throughout history too, or the persecution of Christians throughout history also, even the persecution of Hindus.....

Februaryfeels · 23/06/2024 00:12

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 22/06/2024 23:57

They are no longer defending themselves at all. They have now become the very obvious aggressors, because they have gone so OTT.

Nah.

kkloo · 23/06/2024 00:14

Comedycook · 23/06/2024 00:05

I think it's quite interesting and worthwhile to discuss why someone conflicts really grip the public and others are practically ignored.

Ok well if you think that that's interesting and worthwhile then maybe you should ask that question then instead of what you did ask??

You could have just asked me I followed other conflicts like I do with this one and if not then why not, instead of thinking you got me with a gotcha moment.

Savemysweets · 23/06/2024 00:14

I haven’t seen any posters say Jews are to blame for their government’s actions, can you quote them?

Where did I say I’ve seen or heard the above on Mumsnet?

kkloo · 23/06/2024 00:15

Savemysweets · 23/06/2024 00:09

I also don’t understand the logic of blaming Jewish people for their governments actions. Do the people who do that think the UK deserved some of the terror attacks post War on Terror because of how many innocent people “we” killed?

I for one definitely don't blame Jewish people for the actions of the Israeli government. Not all Jewish people even support the actions of the Israeli government.

Savemysweets · 23/06/2024 00:16

@MrsPuddle yes the numbers killed indirectly is in the millions & many millions were displaced.

Savemysweets · 23/06/2024 00:19

I for one definitely don't blame Jewish people for the actions of the Israeli government. Not all Jewish people even support the actions of the Israeli government.

Which is great but some people do.

Funnywonder · 23/06/2024 00:19

kkloo · 23/06/2024 00:11

The OP picked out moments in history where the Jewish people were persecuted and blamed for things. They did have a rough history but so did many other groups. History isn't exactly a fairy tale.

Maybe she could look up the persecution of Muslims throughout history too, or the persecution of Christians throughout history also, even the persecution of Hindus.....

Why? The OP was specifically referring to the hatred and scapegoating of Jews throughout history. Is nobody permitted to put forward a case about something they feel strongly about, without mentioning every other oppressed group in the history of the world?

Also, can posters just stop making this about left versus right? I’m very much a leftie and, believe it or not, I can still sympathise and empathise with the Jewish people and recognise the wrongs perpetrated against them over many, many centuries.

GeneralPeter · 23/06/2024 00:24

@kkloo

I don't follow what is going on with all of the current conflicts and we are allowed to have opinions on one without knowing everything about all of the rest of them.*
*
So that's not the gotcha moment that you think it is.*
*
In Irish society there has always been an awareness of the plight of the Palestinians so I would have always been aware of that when growing up.

This is fascinating to me because it shows how historical antisemitism still shapes attitudes to Jews now, via which plights are seen as important.

(30% of Irish agree "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust" data from 2014).

RitaFromThePitCanteen · 23/06/2024 00:24

YANBU. I'm not Jewish and like you, the reaction to the 7th October attacks, including the protests against Israel in the very immediate aftermath, really opened my eyes to a lot of things that I hadn't fully understood before, and made me start reading up on history that I had previously been fairly ignorant about.

What specifically shocked me in my own social circle was that Israel had not indicated anything about how they intended to respond on 7th October, but sensible people in my life, people I know and love, glossed over the atrocities that had been perpetrated against Israelis in favour of worrying about what might happen to the Palestinian people in retaliation. And while they were clearly ultimately right to worry about the Palestinians, the stark difference in emotion depending solely on the nationality of the victims was shocking. Maybe I'm odd to treat people as people and not symbolic of their government or nationality, but I don't think atrocities committed against Israeli citizens are less horrific than if the same atrocities were commited against anyone of a different nationality.

I haven't heard much of the "everyday" type of antisemitism in my life, like the silly conspiracy theories, mainly because I've been surrounded by anti-racist lefties. But these same people get so aggressive when talking about Israel, insisting it shouldn't exist, which is a sentiment that worries me: the idea that an entire country "shouldn't exist" sounds very close to some dangerous ideologies. I think the vehement hatred towards Israel, which is much more violent than the hatred expressed towards other countries that do similar things, is the "acceptable" way antisemitism is expressed among people who don't want to appear to be racists or xenophobes.

But yeah, one thing I've noticed is that Israel is generally expected to react to things completely differently to other countries. Specifically they are expected to have absolutely no response to anything that happens to them. I remember the aftermath of 9/11. Few people were happy that we were invading Afghanistan but it was generally believed that the US had to do something. If an attack of the scale of 7th October was enacted in the UK, I hope it would be understood that our government would need to do something as a result of it, even if people in other countries would rather we let the perpetrators go free.

Something I learnt when reading about the foundation of Israel post WWII is that during the 1930s and 40s, Nazi propaganda made its way to the Middle East and some Middle Eastern countries expelled their Jewish population or otherwise harassed or legislated against them until they were forced to flee. Many of the founding populations of Israel were therefore Middle Eastern Jews. The prevailing belief I've found in the UK is that mainly European Jews settled Israel, and most people have no knowledge of what was happening to Jews in the Middle East during and immediately after WWII.

Edited for a couple of typos

Meraas · 23/06/2024 00:25

Funnywonder · 23/06/2024 00:19

Why? The OP was specifically referring to the hatred and scapegoating of Jews throughout history. Is nobody permitted to put forward a case about something they feel strongly about, without mentioning every other oppressed group in the history of the world?

Also, can posters just stop making this about left versus right? I’m very much a leftie and, believe it or not, I can still sympathise and empathise with the Jewish people and recognise the wrongs perpetrated against them over many, many centuries.

Is nobody permitted to put forward a case about something they feel strongly about, without mentioning every other oppressed group in the history of the world?

Apparently not since some posters have implied we should be talking about persecution in China, Yemen, Sudan - anywhere but Israel.

AzkabanWitch · 23/06/2024 00:26

Which river?

Which sea?

kkloo · 23/06/2024 00:26

Funnywonder · 23/06/2024 00:19

Why? The OP was specifically referring to the hatred and scapegoating of Jews throughout history. Is nobody permitted to put forward a case about something they feel strongly about, without mentioning every other oppressed group in the history of the world?

Also, can posters just stop making this about left versus right? I’m very much a leftie and, believe it or not, I can still sympathise and empathise with the Jewish people and recognise the wrongs perpetrated against them over many, many centuries.

Because she asked if they were the scapegoats of humanity?

It's important to understand how other groups have been treated in order to assess that obviously.

If you only looked at how Muslim people were persecuted then couldn't you ask the same? If they were the scapegoats of humanity? Or Christians?

You can't just look at one group and decide that that group out of all the groups are the scapegoats of the world and then not bother to look at other groups histories.....well you can but you're going to get a very skewed view aren't you?

I brought in other oppressed groups because of the question that the OP asked in her thread title.

AzkabanWitch · 23/06/2024 00:27

Challenge to every1 - which river? Which sea?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread