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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
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Lovepeaceunderstanding · 22/06/2024 23:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

@jerkorperk , thank you for your comment. 🙏🏻

circular2478 · 22/06/2024 23:46

@Meraas welll said!

kkloo · 22/06/2024 23:46

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

Yes, YABU

You see that people are appalled by the actions of Israel and you assign meaning to that and decide it's because people are anti-semitic.

To be clear I would feel the same about the actions of Israel no matter who the people were, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, it doesn't matter. It's not about the people, their race, ethnicity or religion, it's about the actions.

TwigletsAndRadishes · 22/06/2024 23:46

YANBU. And...

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Well, you've answered your own question there.

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 22/06/2024 23:47

RedHelenB · 22/06/2024 23:32

It was the left who marched against Oswald Mosely and highlighted the plight of the Jewish people under Hitler. The left wanted talks to stop the Palestinian people being pushed of their land by Israeli settlers. That is not the same as hating all Jews.

@RedHelenB , it wasn’t then. Now is a different story sadly.

Comedycook · 22/06/2024 23:47

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:45

I think Netanyahu proclaiming ‘from the river to the sea’ is worse than Free Palestine.

I'm talking about commenting "free Palestine" on a social media post about a disabled Jewish child as described by a pp. It's absolutely unnecessary and quite frankly irrelevant in that context.

It really isn't too tricky to understand.

What Netanyahu says or does is absolutely nothing to do with that.

Comedycook · 22/06/2024 23:48

kkloo · 22/06/2024 23:46

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

Yes, YABU

You see that people are appalled by the actions of Israel and you assign meaning to that and decide it's because people are anti-semitic.

To be clear I would feel the same about the actions of Israel no matter who the people were, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, it doesn't matter. It's not about the people, their race, ethnicity or religion, it's about the actions.

So do tell us how you feel about the current conflicts in

Sudan
Yemen
Democratic Republic of Congo
Myanmar

Imambaldi · 22/06/2024 23:49

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:01

It’s ironic that you’re terrified about a second holocaust when there’s a genocide of the Palestinians happening right now.

We can’t turn a blind eye to the current events because of the persecution of Jews in the past. Palestinians should not have to pay the price for Nazis and others who persecuted Jews.

This^ !

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:50

Comedycook · 22/06/2024 23:47

I'm talking about commenting "free Palestine" on a social media post about a disabled Jewish child as described by a pp. It's absolutely unnecessary and quite frankly irrelevant in that context.

It really isn't too tricky to understand.

What Netanyahu says or does is absolutely nothing to do with that.

And I also said it was wrong.

But equating Palestine with Heil Hitler, however obliquely, is unnecessary too.

MrsPuddle · 22/06/2024 23:51

Op the Jews up to last century didnt have a homeland and therefore no 'back up' when abused. They were always part of a relatively small group wherever they lived. This means they were easy prey for scapegoating by any leader who wished to distract their people from their own misdemeanours, or used as makeshift enemies to rally people to a cause.

And Israel and Jews are of course the ultimate scapegoat for Islam, as its rulers manipulate it to usefully distract its people from the hatred and atrocities committed between the muslims leaders themselves.

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 22/06/2024 23:52

Towerofsong · 22/06/2024 23:08

OP has been very clear she is talking about antisemitism, not about the current war.

There are plenty of other threads where you can discuss the war in Gaza.

@Towerofsong , indeed but the antisemite left cannot let a chance to hate Jews pass by.

cherish123 · 22/06/2024 23:52

I am not Jewish but am continuously shocked and surprised at the amount of antisemitism around. It has become an acceptable prejudice and this is wrong. Ordinary Jews in this country are being badly treated through no fault of their own.

Comedycook · 22/06/2024 23:52

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:50

And I also said it was wrong.

But equating Palestine with Heil Hitler, however obliquely, is unnecessary too.

Again it depends on the context it is used.

Using it in a debate about the future of Palestine is quite different from yelling it at a random Jewish person.

Again, these are not tricky concepts to understand

CaptainOliviaBenson · 22/06/2024 23:53

Jesus Fucking Christ! How can 49% of people think OP is BU? So 49% of people responding to this thread are antisemitic twats then.

Lindos1 · 22/06/2024 23:53

Thanks for posting this OP. I feel absolutely sick about Oct 7th & the aftermath. I just can't fathom why Hamas seem to be getting a free pass, & Jews seem to be getting the blame for the massacre in Israel. Nothing seems to make sense & it all feels v twisted.
I never understood how the Holocaust happened, but since Oct 7th, I can.

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 22/06/2024 23:53

About the current conflict.

I don't know how to link YouTube videos but if anyone's interested the son of one of the Hamas founders (Mosab Hassan Yousef) gave a very impassioned speech against Hamas at the UN. He believes Hamas are the enemy of Palestinians not Israel. Don't know if relevant but I think he converted to Christianity, not Judaism, as an adult.

He says he was brought up to hate Jews and Israel and was involved in Hamas activities as a child. Only 10 years old. He can't go back to Palestine because of threats to his life.

I can't claim to be an expert on the current conflict and don't want to inadvertently offend anyone, particularly as his views are very strong and maybe a bit extreme, but I thought his perspective as a former Hamas insider from young childhood was interesting and thought provoking.

Really though regardless of the rights and wrongs of the conflict over there, it's shocking that British Jews are being abused about it.

Usou · 22/06/2024 23:53

Very well said OP.

I'm baffled on a daily basis by how so many people have failed to grasp the true nature of the persecution of Jewish people - particularly by Arabs.

I have to listen to gibberish about "genocide" on a daily basis from people who have no grasp of the true history of MENA - including many in supposed serious media outlets.

The lack of awareness among pro-palastinian Arabs of their own treatment of Jews across the centuries is quite simply stunning.

Thank you!

PS: I'm not Jewish either, but I do think people need to know the truth.

Illegally18 · 22/06/2024 23:54

Scammersarescum · 22/06/2024 22:41

You are not being unreasonable

I agree

CaptainOliviaBenson · 22/06/2024 23:55

Meraas · 22/06/2024 23:01

It’s ironic that you’re terrified about a second holocaust when there’s a genocide of the Palestinians happening right now.

We can’t turn a blind eye to the current events because of the persecution of Jews in the past. Palestinians should not have to pay the price for Nazis and others who persecuted Jews.

So Palestinians are dying because Israel is defending themselves from the terrorist rulers of Palestine, yet somehow that's the fault of Jews? Do you also blame everything bad that's ever happened everywhere on Jews too?

EberswalderStrasse · 22/06/2024 23:57

MrsPuddle · 22/06/2024 23:51

Op the Jews up to last century didnt have a homeland and therefore no 'back up' when abused. They were always part of a relatively small group wherever they lived. This means they were easy prey for scapegoating by any leader who wished to distract their people from their own misdemeanours, or used as makeshift enemies to rally people to a cause.

And Israel and Jews are of course the ultimate scapegoat for Islam, as its rulers manipulate it to usefully distract its people from the hatred and atrocities committed between the muslims leaders themselves.

I just wanted to say that this PP does make a good point.

The anger and vitriol directed against Israel serves autocratic Arab governments. In my opinion this anger has long been very convenient for autocratic Arab governments, serving as a distraction from the poverty, frustration, and powerlessness of what commentators call the “Arab street”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_street

Arab street - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_street

katebushh · 22/06/2024 23:57

YANBU

Savemysweets · 22/06/2024 23:57

I naively didn’t think there was much antisemitism in the UK, my eyes have now been opened!

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 22/06/2024 23:57

They are no longer defending themselves at all. They have now become the very obvious aggressors, because they have gone so OTT.

Comedycook · 22/06/2024 23:59

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 22/06/2024 23:57

They are no longer defending themselves at all. They have now become the very obvious aggressors, because they have gone so OTT.

The conflict in the middle east board is that way

Beautiful3 · 22/06/2024 23:59

Yes I agree with your post @FactsNotFictionOnly 100 % . Why must the Jewish people suffer? So many people hate them for no reason. Wish we could start a we love jewish movement ❤️.

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