Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 19:49

kkloo · 24/06/2024 19:45

The entire way you've interacted with me has made me think that,
There was one response to me from you where I did think you were asking in good faith but when I answered you it then became clear that you weren't, and no matter what I said to you you were going to criticise it or twist it.

Happy to just leave it there then!

For reference, someone not accepting everything you say as the truth and then challenging it isn't the same as not being in good faith. But yes, happy to leave it there if you don't want to answer.

KnutonHardz · 24/06/2024 19:53

The OP mentioned: Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

YES OF COURSE. Have not not been following what what is happening in Ukraine? My (retired ex armed forces) poorly DF is following those events in great detail on a daily basis.

That must be a good thing in general, and objective journalist seems to be really lacking in the reporting. Of course, the IDF’s decision to prevent almost all foreign media from Gaza is the primary cause (the only exceptions are a handful of tightly controlled army-led press tours).

Instead what you get is Israelis and Palestinians reporting the war in Gaza in completely different ways, both internally to their own audience and externally to the world.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 20:10

DayIntarnishedarmour · 24/06/2024 17:53

Aladdinzane you seem determined to derail the thread into a political/historical debate. This is not the war of Jewish people. It’s the war of Netanyahu and Hamas. The population of Russia are not responsible for attacking Ukraine. Or would you like to deconstruct centuries or Russian history and politics and start holding their citizens accountable for atrocities in Ukraine? Why should Russian people living around the world not have abuse screamed at them, their churches and cemeteries and community centres defaced? The answer is because it would be vile and completely unwarranted.

Funny that, a previous poster did hold the Palestinian people responsible.

I have never held the Jewish people responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, nor have I asked them to be so.

The entire original post contained politics and history, from a very pro-Israel stance, so it is about history and politics.

Bunnyasmyname · 24/06/2024 22:24

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 20:10

Funny that, a previous poster did hold the Palestinian people responsible.

I have never held the Jewish people responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, nor have I asked them to be so.

The entire original post contained politics and history, from a very pro-Israel stance, so it is about history and politics.

This is a thread about anti-semitism.
It is on the rise and has been for a long time. Anyone denying that is a moron or willfully ignorant.

Anti-semitism was on the rise before Hamas broke the ceasefire and slaughtered masses of innocent civilians

Anti-semitic acts were carried out the day after these attacks when Israel was still in shock and had not retaliated.

People are so misguided and sheep like they believe it is all to do with Palestine, when the truth is, it's been going on all time (hello?? Why is there even need for Jewish state?)
It is just now, it is acceptable once again.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 22:36

"This is a thread about anti-semitism."

Yet it has an OP that makes lots of points regarding Jewish history and other politics points that are VERY pro Israel in their analysis. Not quite as balanced as you are making out.

"Anti-semitism was on the rise before Hamas broke the ceasefire and slaughtered masses of innocent civilians"

I've laid out reasons for that. Do you not think a lot of the anti-Israeli government sentiment is more to do with their slaughter of innocent civilians and war crimes (which they've been doing a long time before October 7th) Also there wasn't really a ceasefire before Oct 7th, otherwise why were hundreds of cvilians in Gaza and the West bank killed in 2023?

"(hello?? Why is there even need for Jewish state?)"

Why is there a need for a Palestinian state? That Israeli government members even today have been exposed as saying they will deny as they annex more of the West Bank (another crime against international law)

Oh but we must talk about it separately? Right then, maybe start threads which don't reference Palestinians whilst promoting Israeli government propaganda points?

Comedycook · 24/06/2024 22:44

Do you not think a lot of the anti-Israeli government sentiment is more to do with their slaughter of innocent civilians

And what about anti semetic incidents in the UK? What has that got to do with Israel?

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 22:50

Comedycook · 24/06/2024 22:44

Do you not think a lot of the anti-Israeli government sentiment is more to do with their slaughter of innocent civilians

And what about anti semetic incidents in the UK? What has that got to do with Israel?

Did you read the OP at the start of the thread which clearly makes statements about Palestine?

About anti-semitism in the UK? Racism of all forms is rising, we can see that across Europe. Why do you think it's exclusively antisemitism?

There is also then the issue that the fringes of the left and right have been taken up with conspiracy theories which are just anti-semitic tropes in new clothing. Qanon? Blood libels. WEF? Protocols of the elders of zion. Globalists? See the same.

Bunnyasmyname · 24/06/2024 22:52

Do you not think a lot of the anti-Israeli government sentiment is more to do with their slaughter of innocent civilians and war crimes.. Before Oct 7th?

No, I don't.
And it wasn't anti-Israel attacks and sentiment Jews were experiencing.

It was anti-semitic.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 22:55

There have been plenty of critiques of Israeli government dismissed as anti-Semitism here.

I've given you reasons though.

Care to respond?

Bunnyasmyname · 24/06/2024 22:56

Jeez this is like banging your head against a wall.

It is possible to.. Shock horror... admit that anti-semitism has occurred throughout history and is indeed on the rise without mentioning Palestine in every post @Aladdinzane

Comedycook · 24/06/2024 22:58

Bunnyasmyname · 24/06/2024 22:56

Jeez this is like banging your head against a wall.

It is possible to.. Shock horror... admit that anti-semitism has occurred throughout history and is indeed on the rise without mentioning Palestine in every post @Aladdinzane

It's really is tedious isn't it.

This thread is about anti semetism..I have no idea why so many posters are so intent on not discussing anti semitism and/or minimising it.

Bunnyasmyname · 24/06/2024 23:02

@Comedycook I know, right.

If ever there was a thread that proved the OP's point, this is it.

79Helene · 24/06/2024 23:07

Comedycook · 24/06/2024 22:58

It's really is tedious isn't it.

This thread is about anti semetism..I have no idea why so many posters are so intent on not discussing anti semitism and/or minimising it.

Oh it's pretty obvious why.

About anti-semitism in the UK? Racism of all forms is rising, we can see that across Europe. Why do you think it's exclusively antisemitism?

@Aladdinzane Because THIS THREAD is about antisemitism. You appear to have dedicated a whole day on this thread trying to stop Jewish people talking about antisemitism with constant derailing and whatabouting. Enough! It's disgusting.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 23:11

@79Helene

Funny that when you read the OP there are several references to Palestinians which make use of known propaganda points.

Had it started " Why is anti-Semitism rising in the UK" as a simple question, rather than presenting some fairly biased ( and incorrect historical narratives) maybe then the debate would be different?

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 23:12

Comedycook · 24/06/2024 22:58

It's really is tedious isn't it.

This thread is about anti semetism..I have no idea why so many posters are so intent on not discussing anti semitism and/or minimising it.

Go back and read the OP.

You want a debate about anti-semitism in the UK? Then start a thread on it, specifically.

Don't try to avoid debate of what the OP has said in the thread by then shutting it down to say " this is JUST about anti-semitism" when it clearly isn't.

Murica · 25/06/2024 01:12

Somebody really doesn't want anyone to talk about antisemitism. I suppose they'd say it's not antisemitism if you believe Jewish people deserve it. There are some prolific posters who apparently do. They've spent hours and hours and pages and pages arguing it.

Humdingerydoo · 25/06/2024 07:02

Yes, all sorts of racism is on the increase. However, anti-Semitism increased even further and by ridiculous amounts about 9 months ago. Why is that?

Obviously not expecting a reasonable response from anyone. That would require actually thinking about anti-Semitism, which people are quite clearly not willing to do. Because it's not a major concern, right?

DownNative · 25/06/2024 09:32

Another example of antisemitism. 👇

Spot the contradiction in these so-called rules.....

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
vivainsomnia · 25/06/2024 09:38

What organisation is it for?

DownNative · 25/06/2024 09:41

vivainsomnia · 25/06/2024 09:38

What organisation is it for?

A tabletop game competition or company, I think. Crazy how casually you can find antisemitism in places you wouldn’t normal think to see it.

Humdingerydoo · 25/06/2024 09:44

DownNative · 25/06/2024 09:32

Another example of antisemitism. 👇

Spot the contradiction in these so-called rules.....

That's disgusting. So even if you identify as a Zionist purely because you think Israel should exist but have no intention of joining the IDF or moving to Israel, you aren't allowed to participate? Hopefully someone will sue them for blatant discrimination.

Bowib · 25/06/2024 09:46

They’ve cancelled due to “safety concerns” but still doubling down in the retweets.
Their bullshit list reads like an onion article.

edit: adding link as my screenshot is blurry https://x.com/crit_awards/status/1805397619835027501?s=46

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
Comedycook · 25/06/2024 09:56

I wonder if they'll let Rastafarians participate? Aren't they Zionists too? Or is it just certain types of Zionists they object to? What about other conflicts over land? Are Basque separatists allowed to join in?

Humdingerydoo · 25/06/2024 10:11

Comedycook · 25/06/2024 09:56

I wonder if they'll let Rastafarians participate? Aren't they Zionists too? Or is it just certain types of Zionists they object to? What about other conflicts over land? Are Basque separatists allowed to join in?

I find the most telling part that they were still going to allow racists and homophobes, just as long as they didn't make racist or homophobic comments at the event. But Zionists? Not allowed even if they promise not to mention politics.

They should genuinely be ashamed of themselves for including that rule.

noblegiraffe · 25/06/2024 10:12

Zionist has become the word for ‘most evil people on the planet’. It is utterly demonised, you can see it in the way it is used on protest signs.

The problem is that people using it think that zionists must be the most evil people on the planet, otherwise people wouldn’t use it that way.

That’s why you see the common misconception that Zionist means ‘fully supports Netanyahu in all that he does’. Because that would explain how it is being used.

Except that is not what it means.

And people are blundering into a complex situation where Zionist is also used to mean Jew.

So we’re in a situation where someone can walk down the street with a sign saying ‘fuck Zios’ meaning ‘fuck Jews’ and people will cheer them on thinking they mean ‘fuck people who support Netanyahu’ while zionists who simply support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state rightly think ‘I am not safe here.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.