To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Separately, what has the current ME situation got to do with British Jewish people or Jewish people in the ROI? Why are they being attacked and abused?

⬆️

This thread quickly stopped being about antisemitism and morphed into a political and historical one within a few posts. Not many on here seem to be bothered to discuss the rise in antisemitism though.

Again, no one has said children are responsible. That is the interpretation you have chosen to run with despite being reminded multiple times that no one has actually said it. You're actively choosing to ignore that and just keep putting words in people's mouths. It's not ok.

Rachel is a Jewish woman who lives in the Republic of Ireland. Here she is referencing the Limerick pogrom against Jewish people and using the same term to the recent one in Los Angeles, United States. 👇

There has been a rise in antisemitsim for a number of reasons.

There has been a rise in racism and xenophobia and anti "other" people's in general across Europe in the last decade which has accelerated more recently.

Both right wing and left wing nut jobs have conspiracy theories that involve some form of retelling of anti-semitic stories, whether it be "globalist", the "deep state" the "WEF" etc etc it all has its origins in anti-Semitic tropes.

The final and most important is of course the war in Gaza, people have felt emboldened to be more openly anti-semitic, although as is said, criticism of Israeli government actions is not.

You definitely have a horse in this race
I have thought this since the first post. So disingenuous.

And it is almost amusing. If someone pro-Palestine said that Jewish people are extremely high achievers, have been behind many inventions and others are jealous of them, they would be accused of peddling antisemitic tropes about Jewish people and power. Yet the other way round, it is just fine 🤷🏼‍♀️

When you blame a people for being responsible for their situation you are blaming all of those people in that situation.

It's fairly easy to understand and the reason you are desperately failing to defend it is that you know it's wrong.

You make some really good points.

No, when you blame a people for being responsible for a situation it is actually commonly understood that children are not included in that.

I guess the fact that you're working off false premises from the off at least explains your insistence that someone has said something they haven't said, despite being repeatedly reminded no one has said it. It's because you've allowed yourself to think something is true when it isn't.

@DayIntarnishedarmour I should apologise. I suppose I've been one of those who got drawn into discussing the ME conflict. I didn't mean to derail but I couldn't seem to stop myself from replying to posters who brought it up

In a way though the fact that the thread quickly descended into that discussion is a good example of antisemitism. The issue (antisemitism in the UK) is mentioned and almost immediately some posters come along with "But Israel...".

Also, and I'm really sorry if this is yet more derailing, but I think the Maori lady I linked an article about yesterday, is right. Anti Israel attitudes do seem to be linked to and influenced by antisemitism.

But you're right. This thread should probably stick to discussing antisemitism in the UK and other western countries, rather than talking about the ME issues. I'll try to stop replying to the posters who ignore that intention.

I wish we could just arrest people who are seen to have committed a hate crime and give them an immediate custodial sentence and fine. Zero tolerance. Whether they attack someone in a mosque, synagogue or at gay pride. It’s disgusting. Innocent people going about their business should not be attacked.

It makes me sick. Every attack on an innocent civilian keeps the hate increasing. No Jewish kid should be scared of going to school or praying in a synagogue.

"No, when you blame a people for being responsible for a situation it is actually commonly understood that children are not included in that."

No, when you say "The Palestinians are responsible for their situation" you are not making that assumption. The fact that 50% of the population hadn't been born and more than 50% of the vote did not go to Hamas would disprove this claim, but no, the claim was that they are responsible for their situation.

Keep trying to deny it, it's back there on the thread for all to see.

@Aladdinzane As Mosab Hassan Yousef says, adult Hamas members are responsible for the plight of Palestinian children. He explains how Hamas use children as human shields, for example.

Another appeal to authority.

Many of the aid agencies refute the "human shields" idea or at least question it anyway.

If it's on the thread to see, why have you still not shown me where someone has said that children are responsible?

Early in the thread I made a post of things other posters have done here and the Israeli government.

I clearly used the list from the IHRA definition of things that are anti-Semitic and stated that people here have done exactly the same to Palestinians.

No one commented.

It's one way,

Hiding in semantics.

When you hold an entire population responsible you hold their children too, there was no nuance in the post ( 44% of the voting population alive in 2006 are responsible) just "the Palestinians".

So no, they did.

No they really didn't. No one holds children responsible so you can stop pretending that's the case now 👍🏻

@Aladdinzane

Unlike outside agencies, he's someone who is a Palestinian, who cares about Palestinian children, and who was a Hamas insider. So his knowledge is from the inside. Firsthand lived experience.

Maybe you'll still remain entrenched in your views even after listening to his UN speech, but why don't you at least listen to what he has to say? I'd have thought someone that concerned about Palestinians would want to hear his speech.

Right I'm going to have to stop letting myself get drawn back into the 'But Israel..." thing now. It's unfair on the Jewish posters here who've pointed out this thread was meant to be about discussing antisemitism including perhaps especially here in the UK.

I don't want to be disrespectful to them by ignoring their requests to return to that. Whether you'll do the same, I don't know but I think it would be the decent thing to do.

Aladdinzane you seem determined to derail the thread into a political/historical debate. This is not the war of Jewish people. It’s the war of Netanyahu and Hamas. The population of Russia are not responsible for attacking Ukraine. Or would you like to deconstruct centuries or Russian history and politics and start holding their citizens accountable for atrocities in Ukraine? Why should Russian people living around the world not have abuse screamed at them, their churches and cemeteries and community centres defaced? The answer is because it would be vile and completely unwarranted.

Howoftenshouldidothis. It’s very hard not to get drawn into politics and history I agree. And difficult not to challenge some opinions. Very few countries have not committed vile atrocities in other parts of the world or to the minorities within them. Doing so appears to be a dreadful flaw in the human race but it’s a terrible thing to do to target the everyday citizens in these countries.

No one holds children responsible so you can stop pretending that's the case now

That's why it can sometimes be best not to engage, @Humdingerydoo, especially if you believe someone isn't posting in good faith

FWIW I was one of those who referred to those who supported Hamas having visited an appalling result on the innocent, but children aren't really able to offer effective support to anyone, which is why they bear no responsibility for adult choices

Unfortunately drawing such distinctions won't suit those whose entire narrative depends on believing folk are targeting all Palestinians, so they carry on insisting something different was said, presumably in the hope it might be believed, and scatter their posts with playground-like silliness which hardly reflects the seriousness of the subject

I'm not misremembering, it's in the thread.

It's not that I don't care, It's that I don't follow everything that is going on currently. I have followed many conflicts in the past. Again I've explained some of that in the thread, I certainly don't feel like I need to explain it further to someone who is not asking the question in good faith though.

Absolute next level debating skills 😂Aren't you clever? 😆

What makes you think I'm not asking in good faith? Anyway, you certainly don't need to explain yourself if you don't want to. I just thought you might want the opportunity to explain yourself since you seem to think you've been misunderstood and have had unfair assumptions and generalisations made about you. I understand why you wouldn't want to explain yourself to someone you've decided isn't asking in good faith though, so that's fine.

The entire way you've interacted with me has made me think that,
There was one response to me from you where I did think you were asking in good faith but when I answered you it then became clear that you weren't, and no matter what I said to you you were going to criticise it or twist it.

Happy to just leave it there then!