Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 13:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

vivainsomnia · 24/06/2024 13:46

And sadly, reading my post, I am ashamed how badly written it is compared to the highly literate posters who've dominated this threat.

I will however take my poor writing skills over well written petty, self-fulfilling and passive aggressive posts.

Noth · 24/06/2024 13:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 13:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

People can reply quickly you know.

There have been whole days/weeks that have gone by without a reply on MN from me because I didn't happen to be using it much/was too busy.

Roopeak · 24/06/2024 14:14

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 13:35

Look up the definition of a strawman argument?

Strawmen are easy to destroy, that's why it has the name.

:)

Although, in a formal setting one might use the term "refute".

Now you've fallen foul to ad hominem too.

:)

Yes well done, I did philosophy at school too. Good luck with your exams.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 14:19

Roopeak · 24/06/2024 14:14

Yes well done, I did philosophy at school too. Good luck with your exams.

I didn't, however I do know when to use the terms correctly.

Unlike some.

noblegiraffe · 24/06/2024 15:09

FFS.

Bunnyasmyname · 24/06/2024 15:13

@Aladdinzane are you a bully in real life as well? Or is it just towards people pointing out anti-semitism on MN?

DayIntarnishedarmour · 24/06/2024 15:21

You can debate the minutiae of Middle Eastern politics and history over the centuries but as a Jewish woman in the UK I don’t want to be targeted, insulted, frightened to walk round my neighbourhood or blamed for genocide. I had no choice in having been born into an Orthodox Jewish family who came here from Lithuania in the early part of the last century to escape persecution. I can’t influence policy or get the relevant leaders round a table to discuss an end to the hostilities and work towards a 2 state solution. I can’t stop innocents being killed or maimed. I can’t de-radicalise extremists on either side or prevent the next generation growing up hellbent on avenging or wiping out their enemies. I wish I could but I i cant. Shouting abuse at us, accusing us of genocide, defacing our cemeteries, schools, businesses and attacking us, isn’t going to give us superpowers to wave a magic wand and make all this madness stop. We aren’t the ones waging war.

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 15:31

What makes you the expert authority on history @Aladdinzane ? Especially as you seem to think history started in 1948.

And what makes you think you know more than the actual son of the one the Hamas founders? A Palestinian himself and someone who has firsthand lived experience as a Hamas terrorist, and has intimidate knowledge of their ideology and their tactics?

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 15:31

TrishM80 · 24/06/2024 12:43

Well, if Palestinian children are not being blamed, they're certainly paying a disproportionate price for Netanyahu's failed experiment.

Glad you've been able to sort of acknowledge you were making unsubstantiated claims for effect.

Yes, children are certainly paying the price for the all-out war Hamas and other terrorists instigated and Netanyahu has seemingly decided to prolong. There aren't enough words to describe the horrors of it all.

Any ideas of how we can combat anti-Semitism, something previous generations have miserably failed at? Do you think maybe acknowledging it's awful existence would be a good start?

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 15:42

DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:29

Antisemitism in Scotland and Republic of Ireland. 👇

Horrifying!

Regardless of what's happening in the ME, even if posters like Aladdinzane really were the most knowledgeable people ever on history and know more than actual experts (he/she doesn't know more btw), what do Jewish people in Scotland or the ROI have to do with the ME issues? Why are they being attacked and abused?

NO justification.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be Jewish in the UK or ROI right now. I don't even know what to say. It's shocked me.

DayIntarnishedarmour · 24/06/2024 16:09

Horrifying!

Regardless of what's happening in the ME, even if posters like Aladdinzane really were the most knowledgeable people ever on history and know more than actual experts (he/she doesn't know more btw), what do Jewish people in Scotland or the ROI have to do with the ME issues? Why are they being attacked and abused?

NO justification.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be Jewish in the UK or ROI right now. I don't even know what to say. It's shocked me.

Thank you. That’s the point I am trying to make. No one in my family and no one in my community have caused the political/historical turmoil that has led us to this point in time. Most of us are in the UK because we were escaping antisemitism. I’m in my 60s. I’ve never been more aware of my ethnicity or felt more vulnerable. There doesn’t feel any safe place to go.

fliptopbin · 24/06/2024 16:09

Aagh, it appears I have inadvertantly derailed this thread. I posted yesterday saying that I wish people who disagreed with Netanyahu wouldn't transfer this to hatred of Jewish people. It looks like someone misread it, or thought that Netanyahu was the leader of Hamas. Hence all this stuff about the culpability or not of Palestinians . Apologies

DownNative · 24/06/2024 16:22

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 15:42

Horrifying!

Regardless of what's happening in the ME, even if posters like Aladdinzane really were the most knowledgeable people ever on history and know more than actual experts (he/she doesn't know more btw), what do Jewish people in Scotland or the ROI have to do with the ME issues? Why are they being attacked and abused?

NO justification.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be Jewish in the UK or ROI right now. I don't even know what to say. It's shocked me.

There's also this not so lovely lady and her....."views"....if we can call it that, in England. 👇

https://x.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1805206796778250306

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 16:30

I'm so sorry @DayIntarnishedarmour

@DownNative That's awful. More than awful. It's sickening.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 16:40

Bunnyasmyname · 24/06/2024 15:13

@Aladdinzane are you a bully in real life as well? Or is it just towards people pointing out anti-semitism on MN?

I haven't bullied or name called anyone at all.

Just used terms correctly, when others don't and critiqued their points.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 16:41

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 15:31

What makes you the expert authority on history @Aladdinzane ? Especially as you seem to think history started in 1948.

And what makes you think you know more than the actual son of the one the Hamas founders? A Palestinian himself and someone who has firsthand lived experience as a Hamas terrorist, and has intimidate knowledge of their ideology and their tactics?

Well, I haven't made major historical errors.

Nor have I made erroneous claims to land based on biblical history.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 16:42

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 15:31

Glad you've been able to sort of acknowledge you were making unsubstantiated claims for effect.

Yes, children are certainly paying the price for the all-out war Hamas and other terrorists instigated and Netanyahu has seemingly decided to prolong. There aren't enough words to describe the horrors of it all.

Any ideas of how we can combat anti-Semitism, something previous generations have miserably failed at? Do you think maybe acknowledging it's awful existence would be a good start?

They weren't unsubstantiated.

A previous poster claimed that the Palestinians were in part responsible for what is happening due to them electing Hamas.

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 16:52

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 16:42

They weren't unsubstantiated.

A previous poster claimed that the Palestinians were in part responsible for what is happening due to them electing Hamas.

No one claimed children were responsible. So the poster's claims were inaccurate and unsubstantiated.

You really don't have to defend everyone who hates Israel regardless of what they have said, you know.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 16:55

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 16:52

No one claimed children were responsible. So the poster's claims were inaccurate and unsubstantiated.

You really don't have to defend everyone who hates Israel regardless of what they have said, you know.

No they claimed the Palestinian population was responsible for what is happening now.

They then had it pointed out that about half of the population hadn't been born when the last election in Gaza was held as half of the population are children.

The fact that children were responsible was implicit in stating that the Palestinians were responsible for their fate.

You don't need to use strawmen to attempt to discredit my point either. Fail.

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 16:56

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 16:55

No they claimed the Palestinian population was responsible for what is happening now.

They then had it pointed out that about half of the population hadn't been born when the last election in Gaza was held as half of the population are children.

The fact that children were responsible was implicit in stating that the Palestinians were responsible for their fate.

You don't need to use strawmen to attempt to discredit my point either. Fail.

No, no one has claimed children are responsible. Stop making shit up to suit your incredibly hate-filled narrative of choice. You can't just put words in people's mouths and pretend they've said them.

DownNative · 24/06/2024 17:02

Los Angeles, United States. 👇

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 17:05

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 16:56

No, no one has claimed children are responsible. Stop making shit up to suit your incredibly hate-filled narrative of choice. You can't just put words in people's mouths and pretend they've said them.

When you claim that people are responsible for their fate and children are dying, you are blaming the children too.

It's easy to take that point apart.

Rather easy to dismiss the entire thing as there hasn't been an election since 2006 and even then Hamas didn't win a majority of the vote.

"Stop making shit up to suit your incredibly hate-filled narrative of choice. You can't just put words in people's mouths and pretend they've said them."

They said them, sorry, its perfectly valid to accurately critique that point this way.

Can you be specific and point out where I have given a hate filled narrative?

Be specific.

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 17:07

@Aladdinzane I don't know why you keep referring only to 'biblical history'. I posted a link yesterday. An article about the archaeological history.

Israel has been in existence for thousands of years. Under various occupations (Interesting historical fact. Palestine is the colonial name for Israel, used originally by the Roman occupiers). Decolonisation is usually something supported in these modern times so it's odd that some people don't seem to support Israel's decolonisation and regained independence in 1948.

You yourself acknowledged that many living in the region today, whether religiously Jewish or not, are ethnically the descendants of the indigenous Jewish people of Israel going back thousands of years (and as you said, many converted from Judaism over the centuries. This was often forced conversion).

Separately, what has the current ME situation got to do with British Jewish people or Jewish people in the ROI? Why are they being attacked and abused?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread