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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Puzzledandpissedoff · 24/06/2024 10:23

But the population of Gaza is overwhelmingly very young, and many pf them would not have been able to vote in 2006. So you are blaming young people for the actions of their parents

Of course not @fliptopbin; if they're too young to be able to influence anything how can they possibly bear any responsibility?

Tragically though, they - like all innocent Palestinians - are paying the awful price of the support too many of their fellows offered Hamas back in the days when it might have been possible to stop them without so much bloodshed

Do all Brits deserve to die because they voted for someone who then went rogue and started an illegal war?

Having not said that Palestinians deserve to die I can't really answer this, but on the wider point then yes - if anyone supports those actually known to have carried out dreadful and illegal acts then I'd say they're complicit

TrishM80 · 24/06/2024 11:21

Didn't Netanyahu actively encourage and facilitate the growth of Hamas in Gaza because he wanted to drive a wedge between Gaza and the PA controlled West Bank, which he felt weakened the case for a 2 state solution?

So why are supporters of Israel blaming Palestinian children for the rise of Hamas, when no one did more to help Hamas than Netanyahu himself?

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 11:27

TrishM80 · 24/06/2024 11:21

Didn't Netanyahu actively encourage and facilitate the growth of Hamas in Gaza because he wanted to drive a wedge between Gaza and the PA controlled West Bank, which he felt weakened the case for a 2 state solution?

So why are supporters of Israel blaming Palestinian children for the rise of Hamas, when no one did more to help Hamas than Netanyahu himself?

Who is blaming Palestinian children? Show me one person who is actually blaming Palestinian children and I'll make sure to tell them to piss off. Or are you doing that thing where you say something for effect because you really, really enjoy those 'thanks' you get, even though what you're saying is without any kind of substance?

Anyway, any opinion on how to once and for all get rid of anti-Semitism? Or at least challenge it in some way?

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 11:46

Colonel Richard Kemp has some interesting things to say on the conflict.

I suspect he, like Mosab Hassan Yousef, knows a lot more than most on this thread

https://richard-kemp.com/2024/05/29/protesters-are-pawns-in-anti-western-agenda/

https://richard-kemp.com/about/

Protesters are pawns in anti-Western agenda | Colonel Richard Kemp

https://richard-kemp.com/2024/05/29/protesters-are-pawns-in-anti-western-agenda

KimberleyClark · 24/06/2024 11:53

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 24/06/2024 11:46

Colonel Richard Kemp has some interesting things to say on the conflict.

I suspect he, like Mosab Hassan Yousef, knows a lot more than most on this thread

https://richard-kemp.com/2024/05/29/protesters-are-pawns-in-anti-western-agenda/

https://richard-kemp.com/about/

Is he the one who is against women serving in the armed forces, calling women who want to feminist zealots? And is in favour of restoring the death penalty for terrorists? And thinks Islamist terrorists are trying to infiltrate the British army so Muslims should not be allowed to serve either?

HarrietPierce · 24/06/2024 12:00

TrishM80 · Today 11:21
"Didn't Netanyahu actively encourage and facilitate the growth of Hamas in Gaza because he wanted to drive a wedge between Gaza and the PA controlled West Bank, which he felt weakened the case for a 2 state solution?"

Yes.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:00

DownNative · 24/06/2024 08:19

Their leaders have been pretty open about this aim for decades from Arafat to Sinwar. 👇

Quoting things said by Arafat years ago is not accurate.

Although I notice that you haven't quoted the current Israeli mininsters who have said that they utterly want to wipe out Gaza, erase Palestinian villages or that there are no innocent Palestinians.

As always, this conflict is presented from one side, portraying one as innocenct victims and the other are the perpetrators

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:01

This reply has been deleted

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DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:04

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:00

Quoting things said by Arafat years ago is not accurate.

Although I notice that you haven't quoted the current Israeli mininsters who have said that they utterly want to wipe out Gaza, erase Palestinian villages or that there are no innocent Palestinians.

As always, this conflict is presented from one side, portraying one as innocenct victims and the other are the perpetrators

I've established the decades long ideology espoused by Palestinian leaders from Arafat to Sinwar. I've mentioned the same before with other Arab leaders going back to the 1960s.

Whataboutery is not particularly valid in response. 🤷‍♂️

Roopeak · 24/06/2024 12:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Oh good, the smug bickering and personal attacks have begun again fresh today. And @MNHQ don't seem to have a problem with it.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:13

Roopeak · 24/06/2024 12:08

Oh good, the smug bickering and personal attacks have begun again fresh today. And @MNHQ don't seem to have a problem with it.

Its not a bad debating point to make that this poster has repeatedly made appeals to authority whilst getting major historic points wrong.

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:18

DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:04

I've established the decades long ideology espoused by Palestinian leaders from Arafat to Sinwar. I've mentioned the same before with other Arab leaders going back to the 1960s.

Whataboutery is not particularly valid in response. 🤷‍♂️

It's not whatabouterry if its direct comparison, do learn your critical thinking rules.

Have you discussed the fact that Ben-Gurion suggested and supported a policy of forcible removal of Palestinians from Israel ( although after it happened he denied it)?

"I've established the decades long ideology espoused by Palestinian leaders from Arafat to Sinwar. I've mentioned the same before with other Arab leaders going back to the 1960s."

You've forgotten to add that many then changed their minds with Arafat even signing peace deals.

Essentially making an excuse for the current behaviour of the Israeli government and AGAIN painting it as a one sided issue.

Which is of course, incorrect?

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:19

This reply has been deleted

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DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:22

KimberleyClark · 24/06/2024 11:53

Is he the one who is against women serving in the armed forces, calling women who want to feminist zealots? And is in favour of restoring the death penalty for terrorists? And thinks Islamist terrorists are trying to infiltrate the British army so Muslims should not be allowed to serve either?

Edited

"Is he the one who is against women serving in the armed forces, calling women who want to feminist zealots?"

That's not what he said. He doesn't think women should serve on the frontline in very specific combat Regiments such as the SAS et al.

Not that they shouldn't serve in the British Army which he's fine with. His words 👇

https://richard-kemp.com/2014/11/18/female-soldiers-just-lack-the-killer-instinct/

"And is in favour of restoring the death penalty for terrorists?"

He explains his view on that here 👇

https://richard-kemp.com/2018/07/24/after-brexit-we-can-give-isil-terrorists-the-justice-they-deserve/

"And thinks Islamist terrorists are trying to infiltrate the British army so Muslims should not be allowed to serve either?"

He doesn't quite say that, but points out the security problems being created by political interference in vetting recruits. 👇

https://richard-kemp.com/2017/08/09/islamists-may-already-infiltrated-armed-forces/

Female soldiers just lack the killer instinct | Colonel Richard Kemp

https://richard-kemp.com/2014/11/18/female-soldiers-just-lack-the-killer-instinct

DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:29

Antisemitism in Scotland and Republic of Ireland. 👇

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:30

DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:22

"Is he the one who is against women serving in the armed forces, calling women who want to feminist zealots?"

That's not what he said. He doesn't think women should serve on the frontline in very specific combat Regiments such as the SAS et al.

Not that they shouldn't serve in the British Army which he's fine with. His words 👇

https://richard-kemp.com/2014/11/18/female-soldiers-just-lack-the-killer-instinct/

"And is in favour of restoring the death penalty for terrorists?"

He explains his view on that here 👇

https://richard-kemp.com/2018/07/24/after-brexit-we-can-give-isil-terrorists-the-justice-they-deserve/

"And thinks Islamist terrorists are trying to infiltrate the British army so Muslims should not be allowed to serve either?"

He doesn't quite say that, but points out the security problems being created by political interference in vetting recruits. 👇

https://richard-kemp.com/2017/08/09/islamists-may-already-infiltrated-armed-forces/

It still doesn't make him an authority on the Israel-Palestine conflict as claimed by the PP. He doesn't pass credibility criteria due to his vested interests due to being the head of the Association for the well being for Israeli Soldiers.

He's also made remarks that his publisher, the Jewish News pay damages for against Baroness Warsi.

So no, not a valid source.

KimberleyClark · 24/06/2024 12:39

You've forgotten to add that many then changed their minds with Arafat even signing peace deals.

And Yitzhak Rabin paid with his life for signing a peace deal. Murdered by an Israeli extremist.

DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:40

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:30

It still doesn't make him an authority on the Israel-Palestine conflict as claimed by the PP. He doesn't pass credibility criteria due to his vested interests due to being the head of the Association for the well being for Israeli Soldiers.

He's also made remarks that his publisher, the Jewish News pay damages for against Baroness Warsi.

So no, not a valid source.

Strawman Argument Fallacy as I was addressing the PPs misrepresentation of what Kemp said on those specific things. 🧐

TrishM80 · 24/06/2024 12:43

Humdingerydoo · 24/06/2024 11:27

Who is blaming Palestinian children? Show me one person who is actually blaming Palestinian children and I'll make sure to tell them to piss off. Or are you doing that thing where you say something for effect because you really, really enjoy those 'thanks' you get, even though what you're saying is without any kind of substance?

Anyway, any opinion on how to once and for all get rid of anti-Semitism? Or at least challenge it in some way?

Well, if Palestinian children are not being blamed, they're certainly paying a disproportionate price for Netanyahu's failed experiment.

Comedycook · 24/06/2024 12:47

DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:29

Antisemitism in Scotland and Republic of Ireland. 👇

Zionist free zone? We all know what that really means....

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:47

DownNative · 24/06/2024 12:40

Strawman Argument Fallacy as I was addressing the PPs misrepresentation of what Kemp said on those specific things. 🧐

Nope, I didn't mischaracterise your argument in order to then destroy it. It might help if you used terminology correctly.

Whilst the PP didn't actually misrepresent what Kemp has said, more provide a brief overview which is contextually correct, you did attempt to provide further detail, however, none of this actually really disputes what the OP said.

I further addressed your point, without mischaracterising it, as the reason we are discussing Kemp is that he was identified as an authority by a PP, by stating that he doesn't pass credibility criteria due to bias.

Roopeak · 24/06/2024 13:32

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 12:47

Nope, I didn't mischaracterise your argument in order to then destroy it. It might help if you used terminology correctly.

Whilst the PP didn't actually misrepresent what Kemp has said, more provide a brief overview which is contextually correct, you did attempt to provide further detail, however, none of this actually really disputes what the OP said.

I further addressed your point, without mischaracterising it, as the reason we are discussing Kemp is that he was identified as an authority by a PP, by stating that he doesn't pass credibility criteria due to bias.

Destroy it? Which are you, a 14 year old who has just joined your school debate club or Ben Shapiro?

Aladdinzane · 24/06/2024 13:35

Roopeak · 24/06/2024 13:32

Destroy it? Which are you, a 14 year old who has just joined your school debate club or Ben Shapiro?

Look up the definition of a strawman argument?

Strawmen are easy to destroy, that's why it has the name.

:)

Although, in a formal setting one might use the term "refute".

Now you've fallen foul to ad hominem too.

:)

vivainsomnia · 24/06/2024 13:39

The whole issue with this ongoing war is that everyone have lost perspective of what event has been the starting provocation and by whom, and what constitutes retaliation and by whom.

The conflict has gone on for so long that it's not even a case of searching through history but deciding on when.

Some start years before Christ, others start at the 7/10 events, many consider it's start in 1948 but even then, you have a number of events to start with.

What about the future? What if two women in the same family, who are the only left after having lost all their children, husbands, parents, brothers and sisters through the bombings in Gaza, leaving them in a level of pain, despair, fear and anger no such people as us posters decide to start a movement. They were never supporters of Hamas before, no-one in their family were. They gain popularity amongst the survivors and preach the destruction of Israel as a right to protect themselves against the IDF in the future. They manage to grow powerful and launch what they call a defensive attack and kill double Israeli than the people who died in Gaza. It's self protection they say.

Is it? Self-protection? Retaliation for the devastation the IDF caused? Hatred and opportunity to express it? An eye to eye mission so the other know what it feels like?

What defines 'starting it' as opposed to retaliation? Time lapse between deadly events? Intensity of the attacks? Length of the destruction?

Whatever the answer, it never ends because those who perpetuate the attacks as individual rather than public lead, small groups who target innocents because the true perpetuators have means to protect themselves. Innocent people who most have no interest in conflict and war and would pick anyday a shared life with other groups because however different their religions, views, lifestyles, and everything else are, they have one thing in common and that is no never have to experience the devastating effects of losing your loved ones to ideologies they feel don't represent their own needs and interests.

Debating ages on the definition of racism on MN, and the anger and frustration that come with it is frankly quite insulting to all those who live on in Israel/Palestine/Gaza/the West Bank soil, who wake to a new day every day wondering if they'll make it to the next day.

Same with all those who suffer from being put down due to their race anywhere in the world and hope they'll make it another day without another incident.

Noth · 24/06/2024 13:44

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