To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

be sad that a group of people who have experienced so much oppression will be remembered for the very same brutality that they themselves experienced

This bit is particularly hideous.

I totally agree with the original post. Oct 7 was beyond awful and I was astonished at the what aboutery displayed by some.

I admire your attitude @DuskyBlueDepartingLight

I don't know if I'd be able to deal with it as well as you.

Regardless of whatever people think of the rights and wrongs of the conflict in the ME (some seemingly with more 'knowledge' than the Palestinian former Hamas insider), why are American Jewish people being attacked?

It's terrible and there's NO justification.

I agree.

This is very simply presented as there being only one solution which is to collaborate with Israel as it is now.

This is massively conflicted and probably wouldn't result in a good outcome for the Palestinians.

Don’t bother - I tried to explain what Zionist beliefs actually are hours ago and why the vast majority of Jews (particularly religious Jews) are Zionists and got ignored. Better to make up their own version of what Zionism is. We’re up to good Jews and bad Jews now, and colonisers.

@Toffeelover it was not a few hundred terrorists. Approximately 3000 invaded on 7/10, and hamas were estimated to have 40,000 fighters in October.

There is, however a massive difference between Jews and Zionists. No, this is definitely not true for religious Jews.

It's also not true for a lot of non-religious Jews.

God, that's horrible.

It's not about falling out with his father.

If you bothered to listen to his speech, you'd hear him say that he loves his father

If you're so concerned about what's happening, why don't you listen to what he has to say?

I didn't mention falling out with his father.

However, simplistic solutions will not work and this current version of an Israeli government would not provide a good outcome for the Palestinians even if they were to collaborate.

The terms negotiated in the '90s showed a deal that was extremely in Israel's favour, an almost Carthaginian peace, but it still wasn't good enough.

The only real solution here is to return to the original UN mandate, which would involve compromise on both sides

Israel wasn't created in 1948. The modern state was, yes, but arguably that was regaining independence.

Israel is the modern state. We can't turn the clock back to recreate entities that existed 2000 years ago. If we did, I'd currently be living in the territory of the Coretani tribe.

Yes, you are being unreasonable. Here’s why.

“… almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors).”

Hmm, the first protests I was aware of were in response to Israel bombing and killing innocent civilians in Gaza.

”The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.” A very small minority of deranged or deeply twisted people may deny the atrocities happened. That doesn’t mean Israel is the world’s scapegoat.

“That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid.”

I have never once heard a suggestion that Jewish people were responsible for Covid,

“Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.”

What do you mean, “there is so much hatred from the UK”? What evidence have you of such hate?

“‘Zionism’… is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.”

What do you mean, “the excuse”? Settlers illegally stealing Palestinian homes have understandably caused widespread anger.

“Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces…”

There is no war.

Israel is attacking, and has invaded, Palestine.

There is indeed a lack of understanding, but it is on your part.

“It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above…”
Where, exactly ?

”… all due to the war Hamas started” - no. Even if one takes the view Hamas started a war, that in no way provides de facto justification for any subsequent action Israel chooses to take.

“Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?”

Perhaps because they are preoccupied with the ceaseless bombing, forced relocation and starvation Israel - and not Hamas - is visiting upon them?

“The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.” No, it is being held to account for illegal bombardment of a smaller and weaker neighbour.

“Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?”

So looking closely at Israel’s actions is in itself anti-Semitic in your view?

”How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today…” Setting aside the relevance of such a claim, what evidence is there for it?

“Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?” Is what? Anti-semitism? Or the perfectly understandable condemnation of the ongoing degradation - and seeming attempted destruction - of the Palestinian people?

Hmm, the first protests I was aware of were in response to Israel bombing and killing innocent civilians in Gaza.

I have never once heard a suggestion that Jewish people were responsible for Covid

What do you mean, “there is so much hatred from the UK”? What evidence have you of such hate?

So basically, you don't know what you're talking about? You've missed some pretty vital stuff.

Exactly - they can't answer the question and I looked it up as LBC has a clip on YouTube - it is the Human Rights Watch NGO who have verified and confirmed with regards to Gazan Health Ministry figures actually being quite reliable.

Yes.
There was no challenge from that poster to explain why I only followed this conflict and not the others mentioned.

“Regaining independence”? https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

I think you're misremembering the conversation that took place.

So why do you only follow this one conflict? What is it about this one that makes you care when you yourself admit to not caring about other ones?

This! There are plenty of anti-Zionist Jews. Jews have been historically persecuted. The Israeli State is an apartheid state commiting genocide. Those two things can both be true.

At least we can finally lay to rest the idea that MN is more Islamophobic than anti-semitic - it clearly isn't since this thread and a lot of truly awful comments are still standing. So I suppose it's been useful in that sense

Further to this, the reason people were questioning you is because of your repeated insistence that anti-Semitism isn't even an issue, despite being told otherwise. You were ignoring the experience of Jewish people as you were adamant anti-Semitism is actually quite irrelevant and that we've exaggerated how bad it is. Those kind of comments will obviously get people's backs up as you are completely denying and dismissing facts to suit your preferred narrative. It's really, really arrogant to go around telling Jewish people that anti-Semitism isn't as wide-spread as it actually is.

Because they don't want peace, they want the annihilation of Jewish people, as they have admitted in the past.

It's very odd....I've seen on other threads too, posters saying they've been called anti semetic and going back through the thread, it has not been said at all.

I wonder if it is perhaps some kind of persecution complex....

Then they tell us they can't criticise Israel without being called anti semetic. Well if you're imagining being called anti semetic, I do imagine that is a problem.

Their leaders have been pretty open about this aim for decades from Arafat to Sinwar. 👇

I read an article yesterday written by someone who is an expert in ME studies. In it he interviewed Israeli soldiers who said after they've carried out raids/attacks in Gaza and they enter domestic properties to check them, they regularly find copies of Mein Kampf translated into Arabic in the homes of Palestinians.

People can shout about the apparent Israeli 'genocide' of Palestinians all they like, but the simple facts show that what Israel is doing, while it may not be perfect and beyond scrutiny in every way (what war ever is?) it doesn't fit the definition or profile of a genocide and it never has.

A man gave us E=mc2. Don’t think being Jewish was the reason (or being a man for that reason)

‘Jewish people are high achievers’. No some high achievers are Jewish

Correlation is not causation

You definitely have a horse in this race